• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Different belief systems

Kiddo

Furry Critter with Claws
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
2,790
MBTI Type
OMNi
How do you deal or cope with people who have a different belief system? I become incredibly frustrated with people who believe differently than me because...well I think I'm always right. Sadly, I generally want to argue with them and make them understand my point of view. Would you say that is just a human trait or a lack of maturity?

Regardless, it is easy to say that you are tolerant of other people's beliefs, but how tolerant are you when somebody is trying to impose their religious/political beliefs or view of the world on your life? It seems that this is the core of most conflicts in the world. Different people value different rights, and when those rights contradict with each other, there are fireworks.

Of course the more relative in your beliefs that you become, the more frustrating it becomes to listen to those who believe in absolutes. And I imagine it is equally as frustrating for those who believe in absolutes to discuss things with those who believe that life is relative to experience and culture.

Of course, the relative perspective is often the most logical because we do develop our beliefs systems based on our family, community, religion, etc. However, logic isn't perfect, and it would also seem wise to strive for ideals based on absolute beliefs. Would you say your views are more relative or absolute?

It also seems our beliefs systems are terribly confounded by the past, present, and future. We wish to maintain what has worked, but we also want to find solutions for problems that we are currently facing, and on top of that we still want to strive forward. Where should our focus be in addressing our beliefs systems and the belief systems of others? Should we be aiming for tradition, compromise, or progress?

It seems that a good share of people just blindly follow their beliefs. Is that wise? Wouldn't it be to everyone's advantage to understand why you believe what you believe? Or is there some benefit to being ignorant of your own belief system? How many of our beliefs have no basis other than what has been dictated by our respected religions or been passed down by our parents? How should beliefs be passed on to children? Should they be indoctrinated or allowed to choose what they believe for themselves?

It seems there are a lot of questions I have about different belief systems. I'm curious as to see what people have to say.
 

CzeCze

RETIRED
Joined
Sep 11, 2007
Messages
8,975
MBTI Type
GONE
I like debating and discussing things but generally it doesn't bother me at all that people look at the world differently, think differently, or have different views than me. I take it for granted.

I think for most people, the only time differences of opinion bother them is when they feel invested in the matter at hand. So something trivial but common, if you really like a certain tv show or band or type of music and someone else hates it and thinks only losers like it. You might get a little offended depending on who and how they said it. And you might want to argue against that.

I think what you were referring to though were the BIG belief systems that seem opposite like Christianity vs. Atheism, Capitalism vs. Communism, Hunting vs. Veganism.

Even so, I don't think people when they disagree with you or express a view different from yours that they necessarily are trying to change your mind.

I think a lot of people are of the mind, 'I don't care so much what you do as long as you don't try to impose it on me'

And most people realize that practically speaking it is IMPOSSIBLE to change everyone's minds to think exactly like you. Nor would they want to. I think people discussed this a little in the 'what if the world was populated only by your type'

The problem is, life and the world being what they are, often times just having a particular view necessitates acting on it, which inevitably means involving or touching upon someone else.

It's that constant conflict of different and sometimes opposing energies that moves the world along. I think most scholars, like sociologists and anthropologies say that different cultures and schools of thought are ALWAYS influenced by contact with other cultures and schools of thought. Doesn't mean they adopt the new one, but they are affected.

Is that vague enough for you?
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
7,263
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
It depends on the belief.

Often times I'll just take a position for the fun of a debate. But if it's something I firmly believe (atheism, Buddhism, psychology are the areas I feel most strongly about) then yeah, I KNOW I'm right and I want to convince everyone otherwise, if they are in conflict and don't seem too emotionally attached to their opinions or to being debated. I don't think it has anything to do with immaturity, but that might be immaturity talking. :p

:)
 

ygolo

My termites win
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
5,986
How do you deal or cope with people who have a different belief system? I become incredibly frustrated with people who believe differently than me because...well I think I'm always right. Sadly, I generally want to argue with them and make them understand my point of view. Would you say that is just a human trait or a lack of maturity?

I do the same thing. But often it is because I hastily assume I have understood their position, and find it untenable. But generally, I like asking (non-rhetorical) questions to procede in a peaceful yet honest and principled manner.

Regardless, it is easy to say that you are tolerant of other people's beliefs, but how tolerant are you when somebody is trying to impose their religious/political beliefs or view of the world on your life? It seems that this is the core of most conflicts in the world. Different people value different rights, and when those rights contradict with each other, there are fireworks.

I am tolerant as long as I can continue to live according to my beliefs. I can't see how we can really ask anyone to be more tolerant than that. I am willing to change my mind if I am mistaken (and have).

Of course the more relative in your beliefs that you become, the more frustrating it becomes to listen to those who believe in absolutes. And I imagine it is equally as frustrating for those who believe in absolutes to discuss things with those who believe that life is relative to experience and culture.

Of course, the relative perspective is often the most logical because we do develop our beliefs systems based on our family, community, religion, etc. However, logic isn't perfect, and it would also seem wise to strive for ideals based on absolute beliefs. Would you say your views are more relative or absolute?

I believe in absolutes. But not everything has absolutes. Absolute relativsm is self contradictory. I am probably more relative than absolute in my beliefs. But I believe many of the "relative" beliefs form "homomorphic" frameworks.

It also seems our beliefs systems are terribly confounded by the past, present, and future. We wish to maintain what has worked, but we also want to find solutions for problems that we are currently facing, and on top of that we still want to strive forward. Where should our focus be in addressing our beliefs systems and the belief systems of others? Should we be aiming for tradition, compromise, or progress?

That question is addressed in my sig.:
Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.

By that, I mean we should accept what has happened as unchangable, and learn the principles we can from them. We need to make the present moment be where our mind is and where we live and concentrate on. We act now, not earlier, nor sometime later, even if the "action" is contemplation or reading. However, we should always work for a beter future to look forward to.

It seems that a good share of people just blindly follow their beliefs. Is that wise? Wouldn't it be to everyone's advantage to understand why you believe what you believe? Or is there some benefit to being ignorant of your own belief system? How many of our beliefs have no basis other than what has been dictated by our respected religions or been passed down by our parents? How should beliefs be passed on to children? Should they be indoctrinated or allowed to choose what they believe for themselves?

We (people I know) are always learning, and refining our systems of beliefs. In the mean time, we act on our current beliefs. Some of it is blind, some of it is well examined. IMO, some traditions we don't understand is a good sign. These are long-developed, ancient systems. Some of it has meaning that someone of my limited experience should not be able to understand completely. A lot of my beliefs are also based on what we call "science", but I have personally replicated very few of the experiments, observations that were claimed to be done. I accept them, due to their self-coherence, and consistency with my other beliefs, and some degree of trust regarding my ability to replicate the experiments and observations implied in literature or theory given appropriate equipment.

It seems there are a lot of questions I have about different belief systems. I'm curious as to see what people have to say.

I could go on for a long time. Thinking about belief systems is one of the things I spend a lot of time on. Epistemology especially.

I wanted, at one point to start creating maps between various long-established belief systems to try to find homomorphisms in beliefs between individuals suscribing to the various systems. But the task is outside my reach with the mathematical tools I have learned so far.
 

swordpath

New member
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Messages
10,547
MBTI Type
ISTx
Enneagram
5w6
I am tolerant of people choosing to believe whatever they'd like and I enjoy discussion on the subject.

I am intolerant of being preached to and feeling like I'm being spoken to condescendingly because I lack faith in a deity.
 

reason

New member
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
1,209
MBTI Type
ESFJ
I find it difficult being right all of the time, and few recognise the tremendous effort which that requires. Woe me.
 

The_Liquid_Laser

Glowy Goopy Goodness
Joined
Jul 11, 2007
Messages
3,376
MBTI Type
ENTP
How do you deal or cope with people who have a different belief system? I become incredibly frustrated with people who believe differently than me because...well I think I'm always right. Sadly, I generally want to argue with them and make them understand my point of view. Would you say that is just a human trait or a lack of maturity?

It's both a human trait and a lack of maturity. When I was younger I was a lot more frustrated with people who saw the world differently, because I didn't understand them. The ironic thing about wanting to be right is that you get into a mentality of wanting the other person to understand your point of view, but at the same time you fail to understand their point of view.

I think an admirable trait is to actually be able to listen and understand the perspective of someone you disagree with. In doing this I have come to feel a lot of grey toward most beliefs, but there are a few core beliefs which are especially reinforced. In examining all of the possible viewpoints I can determine whether I am being unreasonable in my thinking and which viewpoint is truly the correct one (when a correct viewpoint actually exists).
 

miss fortune

not to be trusted
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
20,589
Enneagram
827
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I'm quite tolerant of people beleiving whatever they want AS LONG AS THEY UNDERSTAND WHY THEY THINK THAT WAY!

What never ceases to piss me off is when people blindly follow something but have no f$%#ing idea as to why they think that way! If you're going to put the effort into beleiving something shouldn't you at least do yourself the courtesey of understanding it?!? :steam: I grew up in a small conservative town in which people were all too willing to beleive what thier parents and other elders told them without ever questioning it or understanding WHY they were thinking that way- people would agree with a liberal stance on something and then declare that all liberals were evil purely because they didn't F*&^ing understand what a liberal was or where thier beleifs fell on the ideological spectrum!

When I have met someone who KNOWS why they beleive something though- even if they do beleive the opposite from me- I'm willing to accept that, because they have a good reason to think that way. One of my good friends is a strong libretarian, while I'm a pretty leftish liberal- we've always gotten along well since we've both accepted that our life experiences have been different, and given the other's set of circumstances we may think the same as them. This type of friendship is not unheard of among political science majors! :laugh:

Sorry for the mini-rant in there :blush: that's just an issue that never ceases to annoy me! :laugh:
 

ptgatsby

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,476
MBTI Type
ISTP
How do you deal or cope with people who have a different belief system?

I don't particularily care, actually. If it involves my personal life and it is in the way of being friends, then I'm not friends with them. If it's a work, it shouldn't be involved. If it doesn't affect our friendship or the things I value in a friendship, then I don't care. Actually, I like the third one the most - I like having diverse friends in order to see what and how they think, but only up to the point where it doesn't cause the friendship to be unhealthy.

On the other hand, going to eat with Muslims, Vegetarians and Hindus... at the same time... is quite a thought excersize. Especially with personal choice included (No mushrooms, no lamb, no fish, no pork, no beef). Feels like a travelling salesman problem every time.

Would you say that is just a human trait or a lack of maturity?

It's a subset of human traits, for sure - different degrees, etc. It's not maturity or age related, least not directly. Some people get worse, others get better. (Kind of a pull between how open one is and how accepting, and they don't move together.)

Regardless, it is easy to say that you are tolerant of other people's beliefs, but how tolerant are you when somebody is trying to impose their religious/political beliefs or view of the world on your life?

I have no tolerance for this. I tend to operate on a "mirroring" basis. I have someone sharing my room now who is very religious but he talks all about his religion, the history and the influence on his country. No problems with that - I haven't felt any pressure to "convert" or an attack on my beliefs... and so I reflect that back - I talk about Canada and it's (lack of) history, religious breakdown, etc.

But if someone decides to push, I push back. I also generally find I'm a lot less nice than the other person at this point in my life. They either back down and realise the line I've drawn, or step over it. Stepping over it ends any attempt to be considerate. I had an important lesson on this a long time back when I was "dating" someone very religious. Their community was poison and I put up with their comments for too long. I don't do that anymore.

Of course, the exception here is when we are talking about beliefs. I don't mind hearing why they believe things, etc. Calling me to tell me I'm going to hell and the suffering I will endure is not acceptable, unless you want to be called down in kind.

Would you say your views are more relative or absolute?

Relative, I suppose. It's more absolute in the sense that I need beliefs to be "holistic", that I don't agree with any belief until it manages to deduce itself.

Where should our focus be in addressing our beliefs systems and the belief systems of others? Should we be aiming for tradition, compromise, or progress?

To be blunt - anything other than progress is pointless, least as a society. Progress is, by definition, the continued adaptation to a changing environment. To not embrace it is to become stagnant and eventually be replaced.

But of course, progress for progress sake is stupid - change needs to come with a need for change.

Is that wise?

No, or rather, there is a preference towards questioning knowledge. This is the same as adaptation; a belief is only as good as it is functional. You are only as competitive as your actions allow. By having faith in a singular concept, you must either have a very good belief that is universally true for all eternity, or you must be willing to adapt. Since life (everything from society, technology, knowledge, etc) is in constant flux, so must beliefs.

Simple test; if you were born 3000 years ago but were immortal, should you believe what you did 3000 years ago? If you were born during the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, etc should you still believe the same things?

Wouldn't it be to everyone's advantage to understand why you believe what you believe?

Not really; we can pretend to be rational, but we aren't. You believe in what you believe because you are programmed to believe in it. It's pretty much that simple, be it a belief in science or a belief in religion. However, I think saying that believing in the one that offers the greatest chance for survival makes sense is fairly true.

Or is there some benefit to being ignorant of your own belief system?

Individually, a huge benefit. To know the ins and outs of a belief system is to make decisions based on these values rather than the external world. The less to know of your belief system, the more flexible you are... This is kind of a max/min thing - too ignorant is bad, if for example it leads to a poor moral compass, etc. By ignorant, I'm assuming that one means "average" knowledge of our own beliefs, or slightly less. Beliefs are there to justify behaviour, not drive it, so it doesn't really matter much until you get "really ignorant". In the end, what really matters is how reactionary one is - someone who processes a moral situation through reactionary programmed rules isn't going to become less reactionary as they learn more about the rules they have programmed. And someone who will contemplate it won't becomes less contemplative as they learn more.

How many of our beliefs have no basis other than what has been dictated by our respected religions or been passed down by our parents?

Pretty much all institutionalised beliefs - logically, they have to come from somewhere, otherwise we'd have 6 billion versions of gods and beliefs, no geographical concentration of beliefs, no migration of beliefs...

How should beliefs be passed on to children?

Two opposing forces - 1) They shouldn't, this is the reason why the parents die off - adaption. 2) As much as is required to ensure society is holistic enough to be unified against outsiders.

This is where the difference between forms of beliefs becomes important. It is important to have shared holidays (say, like New Years, or "X-mas" (or rather, Winter Solstice, as it should be known)... even Valentines and the like) for a unified view. It's a mixed bag having a common religion, or a dominant religion, unless it is a secular society to start with (allowing for "capitalism" of religion)... and it is negative if the beliefs are fundamentalist (extreme tradition).

Should they be indoctrinated or allowed to choose what they believe for themselves?

The reality is that we form our views of the world as children, and so they won't be able to pick for themselves, ever, in a vaccuum.

Having said that, there is no possible solution that would allow them to form their own opinion... they need information and we provide it. So they should be indoctrinated, but as a society, indoctrinated with those that offer survival traits. The underlying principles matter more than the beliefs anyway. Religion doesn't have to stand in the way of science, for example (with science being the superior survival mechanism currently)... but if it chooses to, then that society will likely be consumed by another. So beliefs aren't as threatening if the they don't affect the whole - so it probably should stay within the family to decide... it's only a concern when it starts hurting survival.
 

cascadeco

New member
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
9,083
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
How do you deal or cope with people who have a different belief system? I become incredibly frustrated with people who believe differently than me because...well I think I'm always right. Sadly, I generally want to argue with them and make them understand my point of view. Would you say that is just a human trait or a lack of maturity?

I think it depends. 'Different belief system' to me equates to a philosophical/metaphysical/religious/spiritual belief system.
So in that context, as long as they don't push their agenda on me or others, I try to be ok with it.

Usually I don't partake in any discussions though, simply because it's a topic that gets my heart beating way too fast simply *because* I've invested so much time in thinking about it, and I don't want to get invested in a discussion when I ultimately see no compromise/harmony being reached. If others just want to share and express themselves, intellectually I am curious to hear about their thoughts and beliefs, because beliefs shape a person and define who they are and how they perceive the world and life.

I don't have any argumentative streak in me at all. I'm horrible at it anyway. I nominate myself as the worst debater in the history of the world. :) Much of it in the religion context is my belief that there is absolutely no point in arguing about it; it's not like I'm going to be convincing anyone of anything, and I have no goal to change peoples' belief systems - I would actually feel pretty bad if I was the source/instigator of someone losing their religion...because in many ways it's more pleasant to be religious and hold those beliefs. I don't want to take that away from people. Also I am one who believes in the power of choice, and I want people to choose and find things for themselves, and take the mental journey if they desire it.

I'm starting to remember that I've pondered this before. :) When you move beyond the philosophy/religion context and work your way to more fundamental things like morality and a persons' character and how he treats others, then that's where I won't 'deal' with people who have morals that are harmful (and defining that is another topic). Ultimately if a person means well, and has a good heart, and is not out to harm others, I'm able to 'deal' if they have different specific beliefs.

Hehe...found it. I wrote this awhile ago: Parents attempt to instill their ethics in their children - ethics being the key word. And I would venture to say that, for the most part, the children end up having similar, or the same, ethics. Now I stress the word ethics because I'm keeping it distinct from beliefs. By ethics I mean very fundamental traits, such as honesty, justice, compassion, forgiveness, the golden rule, etc. (or the lack of these traits). Children, I think, observe and eventually imitate and follow the ethics of their parents or of very important figures (role models) around them. And perhaps in some cases, individuals may "overcome" any parental lack of ethics and start afresh, but even then I wouldn't think they could know of something different unless they interacted with someone different. Now beliefs are a different story, because while beliefs very well have an individual's ethics as a foundation, several beliefs may arise using the same ethical ideal, and it can get quite complicated because most beliefs have several conflicting ethical ideals and an individuals' belief is the result of which ethic, if you will, takes priority over another ethic. For example, two people may both hold honesty in high regard. The first may also hold compassion in an equally high regard, and so if the choice was presented where he had to choose between telling the truth or withholding the truth to prevent unnecessary pain, that person might choose to withhold the truth because he viewed that result to do the greater good. The second person might conclude that honesty always takes precedence over compassion, no matter what the instance, because the affected individual does not deserve to live in ignorance. This is what I mean by beliefs versus ethics. Using this same example, one person may believe that honesty should be applied only when inquired upon or when his opinion is sought and not when it is unprovoked, but another person might believe that he should be honest even when there is no "reason," or provocation, for him being honest. It is my contention that beliefs do not make a good or bad person, it is ethics. Now, this does not mean that certain beliefs are not inherantly bad...because there are beliefs that are inherantly bad, but when you get to the root of the belief it is bad because of the ethics behind the belief....The belief that there is nothing wrong, or inherantly bad, about premarital sex can have several beliefs behind it, depending on the person - one person may believe love has nothing to do with sex, and thus will follow lust, another person may believe love has everything to do with sex, and will cringe at the idea of sex with someone he doesn't love. And from these beliefs you work your way down to what is at the core, which to me would be the ethic of love - both love for yourself and love for another, and where the importance lies, and these ethics -- love for oneself versus another, or immediate gratification versus patience, or animal versus emotional, or even godless versus godly (this last one is a belief, by the way, not an ethic) -- are what is instilled by parents or authority figures, not the behaviors themselves. The children can come up with countless different beliefs, based on the same ethic(s), and it is these varying beliefs that cause distress in parents, when it is not the beliefs that should necessarily cause the stress, but the ethics behind them.

...And I believe that institutions turn many actions (i.e. divorce, drugs, premarital sex, etc.) into morals, when the actions in and of themselves do not say squat about whether a person is ethical or unethical, has a good heart or a bad heart, is enlightened or misguided. Things such as these have no business being placed in the field of ethics, and an action such as premarital sex can be extremely unethical, or extremely ethical, depending upon the motivation and heart of the individual, and marriage does not magically make sex ethical because the individuals themselves, though married, may have unethical motivations or a very poor character at heart.

Regardless, it is easy to say that you are tolerant of other people's beliefs, but how tolerant are you when somebody is trying to impose their religious/political beliefs or view of the world on your life?

Not tolerant.

Would you say your views are more relative or absolute?

I think I'm extremely relative on a belief basis; but fairly absolute on an ethical basis.

Where should our focus be in addressing our beliefs systems and the belief systems of others? Should we be aiming for tradition, compromise, or progress?

I don't know. I'm not sure how relevant the question is, because each person is going to have a different opinion on which of the three should be aimed for. ;)

It seems that a good share of people just blindly follow their beliefs. Is that wise? Wouldn't it be to everyone's advantage to understand why you believe what you believe? Or is there some benefit to being ignorant of your own belief system?

As for is it wise, well, it very well may be on a personal happiness scale - you know the quote, 'Ignorance is Bliss.' :)

But like Whatever, I have a difficult time understanding those who have no reason for believing what they believe, other than 'Well, it's how I was brought up.' That's lame to me. I mean, I get it, but I have a difficult time respecting the person.

How many of our beliefs have no basis other than what has been dictated by our respected religions or been passed down by our parents?

Oh, I'd say nearly all of them. I mean, there's no way to experiment and really know, but I'm who I am today because of all 29 years worth of experiences and nurturing. All of us are influenced by other people. So my upbringing in a church no doubt has influenced who I am today, in terms of ethics. However, I don't hold any religious beliefs anymore. And admittedly, much of my relativism is due to this fact -- To me, this simple idea of the culture we happen to grow up in being the factor that molds our future beliefs is the single-most powerful argument against the rightness of any one religion/institution/belief system.

How should beliefs be passed on to children? Should they be indoctrinated or allowed to choose what they believe for themselves?

I'm not even going to pretend to know this, and since I don't have children of my own, I don't feel like I have a good vantage point for even being able to answer it. But in theory I like the idea of children choosing what to believe -- again, this is broad beliefs. I'd like to be able to share a variety of belief systems with them, like various religions, and let them pick. But I'd sure try to teach ethics outside of a religious context.
 

nightning

ish red no longer *sad*
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,741
MBTI Type
INfj
How do you deal or cope with people who have a different belief system?
I'm in much agreement with cascademn's point of view. You can believe in something that is completely different than what I do... or in the extreme case, the opposite of what I believe in. Crazy scientology if you wish. :doh: I will try my darn hardest to accept that as a part of you. I might discuss/debate with you about why you believe in such, but I will not going around saying you are wrong and try to force my believes on you (even if I have valid proofs of why I disagree with what you're saying). All I'll say is "I cannot accept your system of believes because of x,y,z." In my mind, people have the freedom to believe in anything they want. What they do not have the right to do, imho, is to blindly push their ideas onto others. The recipient should always have the right to reject the believes and not suffer severe consequences... problematic discrimination based on their decision. I know some things are difficult to override unconsciously. For example I will naturally associate a person that believed in scientology as a little wacko, but I'll still try to interact with him/her like the way I interact with others. I wouldn't exclude the person from group activities that I think the person would enjoy.

Stuff like eating habits, particular prays, rites they have to follow... if I can work around it I will accommodate.

PTG said:
On the other hand, going to eat with Muslims, Vegetarians and Hindus... at the same time... is quite a thought excersize. Especially with personal choice included (No mushrooms, no lamb, no fish, no pork, no beef). Feels like a travelling salesman problem every time.
Oh that's an interesting scenario... has that happened to you? :happy2: I would just skip the eating together part. Have outing... when it comes to meal times, break off individually/in small groups to have whatever you want, then meet back at a specific time and place. A lot easier to handle... plus it's nice for people of the specific religion to have their little private talks. Makes things run a little smoother afterwards. ^^

Sadly, I generally want to argue with them and make them understand my point of view. Would you say that is just a human trait or a lack of maturity?
It's a human trait to want to clarify your point... it's also an innate trait to view self as more accurate. Afterall how can you not? You're always aware of your thoughts and feelings about things... whereas for others... you can only go by what you observe them do. I think maturity comes in realizing we have self-biasing tendencies and work at overriding them.

Regardless, it is easy to say that you are tolerant of other people's beliefs, but how tolerant are you when somebody is trying to impose their religious/political beliefs or view of the world on your life? It seems that this is the core of most conflicts in the world. Different people value different rights, and when those rights contradict with each other, there are fireworks.
I have very little tolerance for people like that. I've stated it above... I'll say it again. You have no right to force anything onto anybody. Even if you think it's a gift. If they say no, you stop. If they tried to argue with me... well they really shouldn't. With every religion, believe what have you, there are sticking points. You push... I poke at those. Push me hard enough, I'll attempt to tear the whole thing down on you. Friendly debates on various issues relating to the holes though, I quite welcome. ^^

Of course the more relative in your beliefs that you become, the more frustrating it becomes to listen to those who believe in absolutes. And I imagine it is equally as frustrating for those who believe in absolutes to discuss things with those who believe that life is relative to experience and culture.
*nods* Relative can be encompassing. I like to think of it as all being inter-related in a giant web of believes. While you might not agree with what they're saying... you can still listen and learn about their absolutes and see for yourself how they see the world and therefore fill in more gaps in that web.

Of course, the relative perspective is often the most logical because we do develop our beliefs systems based on our family, community, religion, etc. However, logic isn't perfect, and it would also seem wise to strive for ideals based on absolute beliefs. Would you say your views are more relative or absolute?
What is relative and what is absolute? I think I'm more in the relative camp, but when you look into most religions or culture... you'll see repeating themes over and over. Does that point to absolutes?

It also seems our beliefs systems are terribly confounded by the past, present, and future. We wish to maintain what has worked, but we also want to find solutions for problems that we are currently facing, and on top of that we still want to strive forward. Where should our focus be in addressing our beliefs systems and the belief systems of others? Should we be aiming for tradition, compromise, or progress?
It depends on what you value... and it depends on what your goals might be. I see it as that you need the past to define the present, then using trends you observed in the present can you adapt for the future. It's simply a shifting balance. For only in stability can you maintain productive change.

It seems that a good share of people just blindly follow their beliefs. Is that wise?
If you phrased it that way... it would seem unwise doesn't it? But if the environment stays consistent... there's no need to waste time and effort thinking about those things. However if the environment changes... well you know the rest.

Wouldn't it be to everyone's advantage to understand why you believe what you believe? Or is there some benefit to being ignorant of your own belief system?
Can you fully understand why you believe what you believe? Some people dig too far and started questioning themselves... Ignorance is in some ways bliss. But it's also dull... (well I find it anyways) and not helpful in adapting to changes. Win some, lose some... same as for anything else really.

How many of our beliefs have no basis other than what has been dictated by our respected religions or been passed down by our parents?
All beliefs has basis of origin... otherwise people wouldn't have wasted time in creating/writing them down. Though they might be completely useless now because conditions have changed.

I've been told by my friend last week that there's a passage in the bible that says you can't consume fresh blood, as in all meats must be fully cooked. Back in the olden days that rule probably kept people from getting sick... but I don't think many people follow that one anymore... not when you have refrigeration to keep meat fresh...

How should beliefs be passed on to children? Should they be indoctrinated or allowed to choose what they believe for themselves?
I'll go with free choice... teach them about the believes, but in the end it's up to them to decide what they want.

Hehe...found it. I wrote this awhile ago: Parents attempt to instill their ethics in their children - ethics being the key word. And I would venture to say that, for the most part, the children end up having similar, or the same, ethics. Now I stress the word ethics because I'm keeping it distinct from beliefs. By ethics I mean very fundamental traits, such as honesty, justice, compassion, forgiveness, the golden rule, etc. (or the lack of these traits). Children, I think, observe and eventually imitate and follow the ethics of their parents or of very important figures (role models) around them. And perhaps in some cases, individuals may "overcome" any parental lack of ethics and start afresh, but even then I wouldn't think they could know of something different unless they interacted with someone different.
Believes vs ethics... two different things yet much related. I like the way you defined them. It's funny how I agree with drilling ethics into children, yet not for believes. Ethics is kind of like the backbone for beliefs... the common themes behind most religion and beliefs. I think I referred to them as "principles" to myself.

It is my contention that beliefs do not make a good or bad person, it is ethics. Now, this does not mean that certain beliefs are not inherantly bad...because there are beliefs that are inherantly bad, but when you get to the root of the belief it is bad because of the ethics behind the belief....
I'm in full agreement with you there. :yes: As to the rest of it... I think I overloaded my brain... I might respond more later... chances are probably not because I'm lazy. But you've brought up some very nice topics for discussion.
 

Grayscale

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
1,965
MBTI Type
ISTP
By definition, nobody can really comment with any degree of certainty on the supernatural, so why try?

Believe what you want and keep it to yourself, or at least don't try and pretend you have a figment of real proof either way, because when it all boils down to it, you don't. :alttongue:


Maybe some people (not necessarily anyone here!) needs to admit that they really only like to "discuss" this because they like to argue and they really think that at some point they will be able to prove that they're right. There isn't any cheese at the end of that maze, though, which is why it's still being "discussed" for hundreds of years. :)
 

ptgatsby

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,476
MBTI Type
ISTP
Oh that's an interesting scenario... has that happened to you? :happy2: I would just skip the eating together part. Have outing... when it comes to meal times, break off individually/in small groups to have whatever you want, then meet back at a specific time and place. A lot easier to handle... plus it's nice for people of the specific religion to have their little private talks. Makes things run a little smoother afterwards. ^^

Allthefrickingtime. Some version of that happens just about every single time I get together with any group of my friends. When I say I have the most diverse group of friends possible, I pretty much mean it in a near literal sense. My dinner parties range from vegetarians and carnivores together (also a pain in the ass to cook for, BTW) to priests-in-training and die-hard militant athiests together, although the muslim and roman catholics are probably the least interesting to talk about. I have such a huge spectrum of nationalities that I can go from feeling like the token white guy to a complete european get-together.

It's why I love vancouver :D
 

Ghost of the dead horse

filling some space
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
3,553
MBTI Type
ENTJ
I'm quite tolerant of people beleiving whatever they want AS LONG AS THEY UNDERSTAND WHY THEY THINK THAT WAY!

Sorry for the mini-rant in there :blush: that's just an issue that never ceases to annoy me! :laugh:
That's super attitude! I just loathe people who try to appear "open-minded", but just end the conversation to first question about their beliefs... "because everyone can believe anything they want" :doh: Du'h, what's the point of being open about a belief you can't discuss?
 

Ghost of the dead horse

filling some space
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
3,553
MBTI Type
ENTJ
How do you deal or cope with people who have a different belief system?
I try to imagine a systematic fusion of our belief systems, which makes a new synthesis in essence.. The agreement on how to express our ideas to each other gives new tools to assess both our beliefs, and so it's a beneficial exercise.

But I must be realistic and say, that I don't try to agree on everything. If I encounter a superior belief system, I take note of it.. usually it is made possible by greater personal possibilities.. like such employment, that you can be charitable, knowledgeable and all-around good person in more ways than I.

If someone presses some extremist point, like that free time should be eradicated and all people should just work, I just point out practical inconsistencies between the belief and the real world.

If someone expresses an inferior belief system, I'll try to learn how I may help them. Later I may try to point out what they're missing by their ideology. I'll try to interview them and to assess the reasons for their world view. Many people have told me that I've been the one person in their life who has made them learn most about thinking and the philosophy of life, so my style might not be all bad.

Most of the belief systems I encounter are individually justifiable, and they are mostly not overly offensive to anyone else. We need a whole lot of different people to make our societies work and make our lives interesting. Even a bit flawed philosophies work quite well in practice, as the society has adapted to expect lot of flaws in everything we do.

edit: I wrote about personality-originated individual belief systems, not any explicitly learned and taught belief systems.
 
Last edited:

substitute

New member
Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,601
MBTI Type
ENTP
My first thought when I encounter someone with radically different views to mine, if it's not something I've already encountered before, is to feel intrigued and curious. I put all my own values and thoughts on hold (since I never have any fixed ones anyway, as everything I think is generally a work in progress), and try to question and quiz them to learn as much about it as possible.

I often become completely absorbed and fascinated by it, and spend days thinking about it and researching it and figuring out how it can relate to or be reconciled with other systems, and quite often find that it's the same thing as something I already know or believe, but expressed or manifested in a different way.

But I almost always end up adopting or incorporating the best parts into my own belief system.

People who think they're always right, and who want to argue me around to their POV, I tend not to waste time talking to and am very unlikely to open up to them. If someone wants to learn about my beliefs then I'm always happy to share, but only if it's out of genuine curiosity and they're open minded, considering the validities etc, as opposed to just pre-decided that I'm wrong and just looking for ways to argue me down. If they just listen as I share, and they just share back, I'm far more likely to adapt/adopt some of their views after personal consideration, than if they get belligerent about it.

To illustrate how far-reaching this is in my life, though I consider myself every inch a Catholic, I'm not a Roman Catholic; I use many practices and principles from Hinduism in my worship; I use the Islamic prayer routine (with all original Arabic words, postures and gestures) occasionally, and many hundreds of ancient stories from pagan Europe, Africa and Asia have formed, informed and influenced my personal worldview and exegesis of my Christian faith. I see absolutely no conflict in any of my practice or beliefs, and people who think they do see conflict, if they listen with an open mind, often change their minds.

I reject nothing outright, I adopt nothing fixedly; I search for Truth, and I do not believe anyone can own the truth, and no one sect or system or person possesses the entire truth because every one of them is by nature of its use by humankind, corrupted and degraded. But I strongly feel that they all contain nuggets and grains of truth, so it's only by considering that truth and the footprints of God can be found in all of creation - in all the products of the intellect that is his image within us - and looking for it, rather than looking for ways to ignore or invalidate it, that we can ever assemble a growing picture of Truth, that becomes only greater and more accurate as it grows.

As far as my children go, my approach is just to teach them everything I know, encourage them to find additional information however they can, to absorb and take on board anything that has a ring of truth about it, to think and decide for themselves.

I learned from Islam: "Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And Allah hears and knows all things." (Surah al-baqarah 256) And I think that's a very worthy tenet for any belief system.

To my mind, humility is the beginning of wisdom; or "true wisdom is knowing that you know nothing" - i.e. begin by acknowledging how little you know as a percentage of all that there is to know. If you begin there, then how can you be close-minded? How can you believe you have the whole truth all figured out already? How can you not consider that just around the corner there is always something new for you to learn, something that, for all you know, may force a person of integrity to reshuffle all their beliefs? Why do you have or look for beliefs? Is it a genuine search for truth, out of a desire to align yourself with truth? Or is it justification and validation for what you already are, motivated out of cowardice, fear of change or of having to expend some effort?

A belief that one is always right shows a really bad defecit of humility. To try to destroy that which proves only what the cosmos already knows - that you know nothing - where's the logic or good in that?
 

INTJMom

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2007
Messages
5,413
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w4
...
People who think they're always right, and who want to argue me around to their POV, I tend not to waste time talking to and am very unlikely to open up to them. If someone wants to learn about my beliefs then I'm always happy to share, but only if it's out of genuine curiosity and they're open minded, considering the validities etc, as opposed to just pre-decided that I'm wrong and just looking for ways to argue me down. If they just listen as I share, and they just share back, I'm far more likely to adapt/adopt some of their views after personal consideration, than if they get belligerent about it.
...
That's the way I feel about it, too.


In answer to the OP:
Some things are worth fighting for, and some things are not.
Perhaps maturity is having decided which is which?

As Dale Carnegie used to say:
"A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."
Arguing is not all it's cracked up to be.
 

SolitaryPenguin

Active member
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
824
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
9w1
I remember one Sunday afternoon, about five years ago, two boys, probably in their late teens, came to my door with pamphlets. I knew what they were there for, so I invited them in to listen to what they had to say, as I usually do. After hearing them talk about their philosophies and such, I asked them if they wouldn't mind listening to mine, not so much in a debate fashion, but just to understand where I was coming from.

In speaking to them about other ways of thinking, and just a generally universal tolerance, it was as if they suddenly saw things differently for the first time. It wasn't really my intention to steer them away from their beliefs, but I guess in hearing me talk, they realized for the first time that you could believe in other things than what were handed down to you since birth.

I hold a giant amount of respect for people who hold to their convictions, as long as, as was said earlier, they know WHY they feel that way. Tolerance is definitely a two way street, and just as I will accept anyone else's beliefs, I would expect the same back. I guess what we expect and what we get are seldom the same.

/babble off
 

alicia91

New member
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Messages
671
I'm quite tolerant of people beleiving whatever they want AS LONG AS THEY UNDERSTAND WHY THEY THINK THAT WAY!

Since when did a belief system have anything to do with logic? Most people I know have told me that their belief system, or more specifically their religion is something that they FEEL in their HEARTS and the head is just compelled to believe it. Most feel that it wasn't really a choice but a gift from their creator. I guess with other belief systems that are rational it's a completely different story because there is probably some thought behind it.

Personally, I love to hear about other's religions but I'm not really one to debate it or challenge it - to do so would be disrespectful. It's really not my place to. Just like I wouldn't challenge anyone's sexuality, marriage, major choices in life etc. The only times I tend to challenge is when someone tells me that I'm wrong for my views or give me some other judgemental crap like telling me that I'm not Saved because I'm not Born-Again Christian. If I find someone's views too radically different AND judgemental on ME then I probably wouldn't be close to them. For example, my sister is gay and has long-time partner and recently came for a stay at my house. One of my friends didn't want to come over with her kids because she didn't believe in that 'lifestyle.' Hmm...OK....I don't think I will invite you over again.... ever. Does that make ME narrow-minded? :rolli:
 
Top