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Raised Catholic then seperated away

raz

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I'm just writing a quick post and I'll elaborate more later. My family, mother and father's side are all Catholic. I was raised in the Catholic church. However, as I went through my teen years, and I learned more about myself and the world, I realized how narrow minded I was being. Without the help of religion, I build my life around logic and practicality. I have a responsibility to myself to push my own thought process, challenge my viewpoints and learn about outside viewpoints.

As an ISTJ, using those principles, I just couldn't take in Catholicism anymore. I started to realize how much religion was debated and uncertain in the world and I couldn't allow myself to have "faith" in something that I could easy find reasons not to believe in. I held a higher respect for logically criticizing viewpoints rather than the church. I'm not bashing current believers, but as I learned more about myself and my own standards, I couldn't do it anymore.

I'm not sure what I believe. I tend to think of myself as Agnostic, but to me, it seems like there's still so much for us as a race to learn about our own minds and the universe that goes far beyond our current constructs of religion. Anyway, that's it. I'll add more later.
 

ElizaJane

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Hi Raz. I understand where you're coming from. I think it's great that you're allowing for a little mystery to exist. I've known a lot of people who became an atheist or a believer and then expected that approach to answer all of the questions one might have. Then, when all questions couldn't be answered, they turned whole-heartedly in the other direction. For many people, the pendulum keeps swinging, or they become so bitter about one side that they can't have a polite conversation about it.

I was raised Catholic, left, came back, left, and came back. :blush: I hope you find some peace about things soon!
 

Amethyst

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I think it's healthy that you're keeping your mind open. I'm the same way. Raised Catholic, and from the very beginning I questioned everything, and after a while realized that the Church contradicts itself too many times for me to take seriously. I'm agnostic as well, since I pretty much felt forced into the faith and saw a lot of things wrong with it, like any institution, religious or not.

I think you'd be better off seeing religion as more of a 'guideline' rather than a clear-cut set of rules like many people do. Maybe they fear for their souls, don't know any better, or feel most comfortable living that way, but I see that you do not. Take it as a guideline to living, and with that, try and collect more information about other religions and their principles. You might see that in terms of guidelines, they're very similar.
 

Totenkindly

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Raised Protestant/Evangelical and I've had to make the same sort of shift. I really really tried to give things a benefit of a doubt and work within that framework, but I was rationally and emotionally conflicted the entire time-- especially when I got out of the cloistered environment and realized what a variety of beliefs existed and what basis they existed on. It gave me some perspective. It was hard to allow myself to change because I didn't want to make a mistake, and I also knew I would lose some friends/standing in my community and yet had no place to go, but once I made more room for ambiguity and mystery in my outlook, I was much happier and whole.

I think it always better to be honest where you're at than in playing games with yourself. Sometimes we do have to "try things on" to see how they fit, but at some point it's not worth continuing to try to cram that mis-sized shoe on your foot.
 

Lark

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I'm just writing a quick post and I'll elaborate more later. My family, mother and father's side are all Catholic. I was raised in the Catholic church. However, as I went through my teen years, and I learned more about myself and the world, I realized how narrow minded I was being. Without the help of religion, I build my life around logic and practicality. I have a responsibility to myself to push my own thought process, challenge my viewpoints and learn about outside viewpoints.

As an ISTJ, using those principles, I just couldn't take in Catholicism anymore. I started to realize how much religion was debated and uncertain in the world and I couldn't allow myself to have "faith" in something that I could easy find reasons not to believe in. I held a higher respect for logically criticizing viewpoints rather than the church. I'm not bashing current believers, but as I learned more about myself and my own standards, I couldn't do it anymore.

I'm not sure what I believe. I tend to think of myself as Agnostic, but to me, it seems like there's still so much for us as a race to learn about our own minds and the universe that goes far beyond our current constructs of religion. Anyway, that's it. I'll add more later.

I think perhaps that this is not an uncommon juvenile and maturational rite of passage, you grow up, the understandings you had as a kid dont suffice any longer, you either develop them or dispense with them.

I went through a phase where I was very prepared to take agnosticism and even athiesm seriously, at least examine all their premises, it didnt last however, I returned to professing Roman Catholicism.

Presently I've been assailed by doubts like what I've never experienced before, even during that agnostic/philosophical revere (spelling), but to be uncertain of something is not to plain disbelieve it and I'm reading a lot of interesting spiritual texts, The Cloud of Unknowing, The Interior Castle, The Dark Night of The Soul and some Jungian psychology too forming a kind of bridge to an earlier self which was much more absorbed in secular psychology.

I wish you luck in whatever course you chart and however you frame and meet your needs, I personally dont think the "God shaped" hole will go away or be rationalised away as anything else than what it is (and there are some excellent alternative explanations for it, attachment, addiction, internalised scripts).

A possible cavet being that I dont believe religion by itself, if observed strictly as a dogma or tradition is sufficient either, no more than you can expect the exact same experience from rereading a favourite book, sharing that book with a friend and then soliciting their opinions.

Disbelief is fashionable and en vogue like it never was before, it's certainly the greater challenge to ask "how can there be no God?" than "Is there a God?", a Godless logic (which isnt the only sort) is upheld as the grown up, courageous, clever thing to profess and we suppose we are rational instead of simply rationalising (a curious, curious thing given that science suggests we share common ancestory with animals for whom instinct and intuition overwhelms logic or reason as a trait of mind. Most religious either concur or dont care whether this is true or not.). It wasnt always so, culture can determine what is estimable to think and believe and provide a pressure of which it is possible to be barely even aware.

Good Luck friend.
 

highlander

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I'm just writing a quick post and I'll elaborate more later. My family, mother and father's side are all Catholic. I was raised in the Catholic church.

Same here pretty much.

I'll always believe in God and my upbringing helped to shape that.

However, the Catholic religion felt a bit too traditional or constraining. Their view on birth control for example - they're just out of step with the times.
 

Lark

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Same here pretty much.

I'll always believe in God and my upbringing helped to shape that.

However, the Catholic religion felt a bit too traditional or constraining. Their view on birth control for example - they're just out of step with the times.

Which one's that now? What times?

Not issuing a challenge here, just interested, always eager to learn from others.
 

highlander

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Which one's that now? What times?

Not issuing a challenge here, just interested, always eager to learn from others.

I've been going to this place for years.

Willow Creek Community Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not as much lately as I should though. Sometimes people can be a little over the top on things but overall, it's a better fit for me personally.

For anybody who lives in the SF Bay Area, there is a guy - John Ortberg who is an amazing pastor/educator that used to be at Willow. If you live there, you should visit one of his services.
 

Totenkindly

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Lark

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I've been going to this place for years.

Willow Creek Community Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not as much lately as I should though. Sometimes people can be a little over the top on things but overall, it's a better fit for me personally.

For anybody who lives in the SF Bay Area, there is a guy - John Ortberg who is an amazing pastor/educator that used to be at Willow. If you live there, you should visit one of his services.

I'm going to sound sectarian but what the hell, it sounds very much stuck in the schism era of Christianity, mumbo jumbo about grace and being saved is totally going to deter the very people Jesus came to put a message across to.

More and more convinced that Tolstoy's cut the crap Christianity was doing everyone a favour.
 

Totenkindly

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I'm pretty sure Hybels and the guys you're bitching about read Tolstoy.
They probably appreciate Dostoevsky more though.
 

Randomnity

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I was raised christian (free methodist was the church we went to, but my parents were a little more young-earth, fundamentalist, literal-bible christian than that church, I think). So pretty much as strict as the catholics, or even more so than some types of catholics. My mom is actually religious to the point of being somewhat crazy from my perspective - she has thrown out birthday gifts (mainstream books and dvds) to my sisters (ages 17 and 19) because she thought these things were "inspired by the devil". Anyway.

Like many people I know, I stopped agreeing with the structure of religion and refused to go to church when I was old enough to reason fairly well, maybe age 10 (though my parents forced me to go until I really dug my heels in around age 12-14). It took me a little longer to question the existance of god, perhaps 5 years later. In the meantime I didn't really think about it either way.

Now I consider myself agnostically atheist - I won't consider the existance of a god until evidence suggests it, though I don't think we can rule it out either, but for now I act as though there is no god. I am really cynical about organized religion though, particularly the not-so-subtle classification of women as (distantly) second citizens in most religions. It suits the interests of primitive male religious leaders too well for me to believe it could be inspired by god.
 

raz

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there are just so many ways to look at religion. why do we need it? if w can't outright see proof of the method of our creation, apparently there still is mystery. i allow for that mystery but i refuse to allow for speculation. why does religion even have to be about everyday morals and guidelines? are we too inept or afraid to teach ourselves?

to me, creation is too essential and basic to us as a race that i just don't understand the point of speculation if the information hasn't been supplied to us. we're really so insignificant compared to the universe. so many things that happen that people explain away with religion such as miracles could be either chance, logic or things in our universe that we havent come to comprehend or experience yet.

if you really think about how people use their belief in god to provide personal peace, they could be doing it the same way as everyone but just using the world god as a cover for a set of feelings they are experiencing.
 

highlander

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I was raised christian (free methodist was the church we went to, but my parents were a little more young-earth, fundamentalist, literal-bible christian than that church, I think). So pretty much as strict as the catholics, or even more so than some types of catholics. My mom is actually religious to the point of being somewhat crazy from my perspective - she has thrown out birthday gifts (mainstream books and dvds) to my sisters (ages 17 and 19) because she thought these things were "inspired by the devil". Anyway.

Like many people I know, I stopped agreeing with the structure of religion and refused to go to church when I was old enough to reason fairly well, maybe age 10 (though my parents forced me to go until I really dug my heels in around age 12-14). It took me a little longer to question the existance of god, perhaps 5 years later. In the meantime I didn't really think about it either way.

Now I consider myself agnostically atheist - I won't consider the existance of a god until evidence suggests it, though I don't think we can rule it out either, but for now I act as though there is no god. I am really cynical about organized religion though, particularly the not-so-subtle classification of women as (distantly) second citizens in most religions. It suits the interests of primitive male religious leaders too well for me to believe it could be inspired by god.

You might try reading this. I've heard it is good.

The case for Christ: a journalist's personal investigation of the evidence for Jesus [Book]
 

proximo

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I relate to what the OP says... though I wasn't raised Catholic by my family (which was completely non-religious in between flirtations with the Jehovah's Witnesses), the literature I grew up reading in the very isolated conditions in which I lived, "raised" me as a medieval Catholic.

I spent my teens and 20's searching and trying to join a church that no longer exists. I found a close cousin to it in the Anglo-Catholic tradition, but then became disillusioned with organised religion in general. I trained as a priest, spent years dreaming of being a monk... joined the Society of St Francis and spent much time in Assisi and, though I no longer call myself a Christian, I somehow can't stop being a Franciscan... funny, eh?

I spent a while irked at this "not knowing what it is I believe" thing, until I came to peace with it... I realised that being bothered by it was, in itself, a sign of Catholic hangovers in me... needing to have a defined, organised catechism and all that - who says you need to? The church, that's who. Well, so what?

I've spent the last few years lone ranger-ing it really... recently I came across Peter Rollins, a pretty radical theologian, it seems - I like some of what he says and that's the most I'll say of anything... I guess I've lost the need though, to "do religion" in groups, organisations etc...
 

Phoenix_400

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I was raised southern baptist in a very small farming community (though we actually went to a methodist church for a while because it was closer...Couldn't really tell much of a difference). I started questioning things in my very early teens. There was just so much hypocrisy and everyone was so closed-minded, I couldn't stand it. I twisted in the wind for a bit and did some studying and a lot of soul-searching. I've finally found my niche in more Eastern philosophies. I believe in a higher power, but I'm also a firm believer in Balance and Karma.

I have a hard time with written scripture (Bible, Koran, etc.) There's so many people that take it so literally, but the Bible was written by the hands of man, not God. Its been translated over and over through the ages, in times when only the clergy and royals could even read. Wouldn't be hard to fudge a few lines and twist things around. Fear of divine retribution is a good way to keep people subjugated. There's more in my beliefs beyond that but I doubt anyone wants to hear me ramble too long.

If you take a close look, most major religions have 2 things in common:
1.) Belief in a higher power. (God, Allah, Mother Earth, etc.)
2.) Some variation of The Golden Rule. (Do unto others, live in harmony, respect nature, etc)
I think we spend too much time focusing on how we're different than on how we're the same. I've got a theory on this that I spent a bit of time developing.

As for me, I try to find Balance. I'll respect beliefs of others as long as they don't bring harm to their fellow man and they are willing to respect the beliefs of myself and others as well (I'm a 'live and let live' type, I guess). I'll stay true to myself and try to do right by others. When my time comes, I'll leave it up to the Creator to decide what I deserve. I may be a cocky bastard sometimes, but I'm not arrogant enough to believe I know for certain what a divine being wants from me.

And now I do something that is quite rare for me indeed, quote scripture (I don't remember a lot, but this is something that stuck in my head at an early age):

Romans 11:33-34
33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments,and his paths beyond tracing out!
34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became his counselor?

Or to quote from the movie Dogma: :D

Rufus: He still digs humanity, but it bothers Him to see the shit that gets carried out in His name - wars, bigotry, televangelism. But especially the factioning of all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it.

Bethany: Having beliefs isn't good?

Rufus: I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant.

....When that movie 1st came out, I had to sneak it into the house and watch it at night after my parents went to bed.
 

Lark

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I'm pretty sure Hybels and the guys you're bitching about read Tolstoy.
They probably appreciate Dostoevsky more though.

Aye likely but the point about Tolstoy was that he set himself up as opposing the ideas about grace or salvation mentioned in the wiki.
 

Lark

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classification of women as (distantly) second citizens in most religions. It suits the interests of primitive male religious leaders too well for me to believe it could be inspired by god.

What about organised athiesm? What is organised religion BTW? What's unorganised religion? Is it religion or culture which determines the patriarchal nature of things?
 

Randomnity

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What about organised athiesm?
??????

Atheism describes (roughly) how I think. It's a description, not a set of rules and guidelines.
What is organised religion BTW? What's unorganised religion? Is it religion or culture which determines the patriarchal nature of things?
I'm referring to the broad areas of christianity/catholicism, judaism and islam.

I'm very aware that not all the individual sects of organized religion practice being oppressive/demeaning to women, but the original texts ARE. At least to me, although I'm aware that many religious women are just fine with following hubby's orders, since god made him the leader of the house.
 

Lark

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I relate to what the OP says... though I wasn't raised Catholic by my family (which was completely non-religious in between flirtations with the Jehovah's Witnesses), the literature I grew up reading in the very isolated conditions in which I lived, "raised" me as a medieval Catholic.

I spent my teens and 20's searching and trying to join a church that no longer exists. I found a close cousin to it in the Anglo-Catholic tradition, but then became disillusioned with organised religion in general. I trained as a priest, spent years dreaming of being a monk... joined the Society of St Francis and spent much time in Assisi and, though I no longer call myself a Christian, I somehow can't stop being a Franciscan... funny, eh?

I spent a while irked at this "not knowing what it is I believe" thing, until I came to peace with it... I realised that being bothered by it was, in itself, a sign of Catholic hangovers in me... needing to have a defined, organised catechism and all that - who says you need to? The church, that's who. Well, so what?

I've spent the last few years lone ranger-ing it really... recently I came across Peter Rollins, a pretty radical theologian, it seems - I like some of what he says and that's the most I'll say of anything... I guess I've lost the need though, to "do religion" in groups, organisations etc...

I think it sounds like you are what I would define as a cultural RC, I know lots of people who are enthralled by the medievalism or other cultural aspects of the Church or history without believing the religion or experiencing any personal revelation as a result of having the religion as an original platform.

Can I ask what the books are? I've had similar experiences you know, its what prevents me joining any of the orders that I'm interested in, like The Jesuits.

Well that and I could no way in hell keep a vow of chastity.
 
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