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  1. #21
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    ??????

    Atheism describes (roughly) how I think. It's a description, not a set of rules and guidelines.

    I'm referring to the broad areas of christianity/catholicism, judaism and islam.

    I'm very aware that not all the individual sects of organized religion practice being oppressive/demeaning to women, but the original texts ARE. At least to me, although I'm aware that many religious women are just fine with following hubby's orders, since god made him the leader of he house.

    Oh alright, the question about organised athiesm or not was because I know people who oppose each equally.

    Not all where sexist but neither was Christianity in its beginnings, the original Church had prominant female followers in its hierarchy, the only two witnesses to the resurrection where female, the gospel is supposed to have been spread by Mary Magdelene, the matriarchal leadership of the church made it popular with gentiles who where converts from matriarchal paganism.

    It took a serious effort to undo and undermine all that, including the invention of the myth that Mary Magdelene was a prostitute.

  2. #22
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    It took a serious effort to undo and undermine all that, including the invention of the myth that Mary Magdelene was a prostitute.


    As if that would actually invalidate her anyway, even if she were.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Can I ask what the books are? I've had similar experiences you know, its what prevents me joining any of the orders that I'm interested in, like The Jesuits.
    Jesuits?? My grandfather was raised by his uncle after his father died. That uncle was a Jesuit priest. I'm wearing as I type, a gold wedding band style ring that belonged to that uncle (my great, great uncle), with the words AD MAIOREM DEI GLORIAM engraved on it. It has scratches still visible on it from where it was cut open to be removed when my dad broke his hand, then mended again by me after he died, so I could wear it. I don't know why... St Francis is far more on my wavelength and he's about as far from a Jesuit as you can get!

    Suffice it to say, as I said... I'm content for now to lone ranger it... I have a background in Islam (Averroes being my greatest influence there), as well as a big dose of Taoism, so that complicates things when it comes to explaining things to the outsider... to me though, it's the opposite! I guess I'm an Islamic-Franciscan-Taoist... if I MUST label myself... though I don't see any point in doing so when I'm quite pointedly NOT a member of any group!

    Of course I know that there are always going to be people who, when you say that, will make faces of contempt and dismiss me with a haughty hand gesture, saying "Ha! Pick N Mix religion eh? Sounds like you don't really know what you believe, or you just make it up as it suits you!" What can you say to such people? I don't think there is anything you can say. I know it's not like that, and so does God. That's all that matters to me.

    Well that and I could no way in hell keep a vow of chastity.
    Haha... that's the easy part! 8 years and... not really counting any more...

    (wait, is it 9 now? I'm really not sure!)

    Oh, you asked what "the books" were! I'm not sure which books you mean? The ones I read as a kid that instilled early medieval Catholicism into me? Too many to list, really... just anything and everything that I could get my hands on, that was written from Julius Caesar to about 1100 AD, and stuff written about that period later on, too. Mostly European, not all Christian, but in a way that sort of explains why I dug SF so much when I learned of him... he was a reactionary in many ways... he was born right at the end of that period, when a massive change of era was happening, move towards a money economy and lots of new papal edicts being passed... he was a rebel really... of the old school
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Yeah, it was the church which didnt really exist anymore comment which interested me, I read The Cloud of Unknowing once and loved it, got Dark Night of the Soul and Interior Castle on order from Amazon at the moment and Tolstoys bible in brief and confession.

    I generally have to have some information before I assess whether people are pick and mix or not, some people are, I generally find that a lot of the Wiccan or pop-paganism people are pick and mix and its a reflection of engrained liberalism or politics finding an expression in a choice of religion, I dont think religion should be something you simply choose. I should choose you. Its something which so strongly resonates with you that you have to integrate or interiorise it when you uncover it.

    As a result, while I'm a practicing RC, I cant be dogmatic and if I where to list my influences there'd be taoism, shintoism, zen, some sorts of buddhism, aswell as christian mysticism, I think that Ignatious' spiritual crisis, dude cried for four days or something, and the spiritual exercises which he developed in recovery resonate most strongly with me, although I know the whole militarism and secrecy scare people.

    I think reading Dune and its featuring the Zen Sunnis or Orange Catholic Bible (yeah, not many people get the anathema in the second, even if they see it in the first) and depicting the fate of religions over an insanely long time scale made me consider afresh how I viewed religion. It can also easily become an obsticle to reaching God or growing and developing.

  4. #24
    THIS bitch stringstheory's Avatar
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    Sometimes I think "raised Catholic" should be its own religious category

    While I lost the belief in the dogma, and the fire and brimstone, I will say the one thing I took out of being raised in the Church was the sense of community it provided, a respect for all kinds of lifer, and the know-how to explore my beliefs and thoughts in order to achieve spiritual balance. Even though I identify primarily as an agnostic atheist, I find spirituality through science. The fact that mountains took billions of years to form, through slow natural processes with no assistance from man, or that stars are suns in other solar systems with other planets, is more inspirational to me that to say that any God decided and it was so, even though i recognize that even the scientific method can be flawed simply because it's a human concept I would certainly attribute this to my Catholic upbringing, as well as my desire to find other spiritual atheists^^
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I think spiritually athiesm is impoverished, although I would say that.

    I dont know how you can find scientific facts spiritually uplifting in anyway, I dont think that the idea that creation came about because God "said so" has much currency anymore, let alone within RC which never really where creationist in modern times the way that the protestant congregations where.

    It was easier for RC believers to be reconciled to much of scientific discovery because they didnt get seduced by either solo scripture or scriptural literalism, they're both dead ends and athiestic science is probably the natural or logical response when confronted by them. There is another, alternative view though.

  6. #26
    THIS bitch stringstheory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think spiritually athiesm is impoverished, although I would say that.
    come again?

    I dont know how you can find scientific facts spiritually uplifting in anyway, I dont think that the idea that creation came about because God "said so" has much currency anymore, let alone within RC which never really where creationist in modern times the way that the protestant congregations where.
    It's just awe inspiring; specifically i'm looking in the realm of physics, but astronomy, chemistry, and biology have their elements too. I don't know how else to describe it except a very deeply felt emotion when confronted with the awesome complexity of the universe, the world, the system in which we live. watching Carl Sagan's "Cosmos" makes me cry sometimes. Quantum physics and the theories surrounding are astoundingly complex and beautiful. There are billions and billions of stars and planets. life on Earth is extremely diverse, and yet we all come from a common ancestor, and to varying degrees all life makes the world turn. and we've only barely scratched the surface of discovery about how it all works. it's incredible.

    Granted, i was exaggerating about the "God said so" thing, but my point is that i find the idea of a humanoid higher power dictating morality and otherwise involving his/her/its self in Earthy affairs rather empty.
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  7. #27
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    , I think that Ignatious' spiritual crisis, dude cried for four days or something, and the spiritual exercises which he developed in recovery resonate most strongly with me, although I know the whole militarism and secrecy scare people.
    Ignatius is who I draw spirituality from. He is my favorite, although I am often frustrated with modern jesuits in the Americas. His sense of sorrow and compassion, along with his indifference and gift for order resonate with me. Have you had a chance to read the "autobiography" of him, The Pilgrim's Journey? It's fairly enlightening, although the personality of Ignatius is often too, shall I say, distant or intensely serious for people to identify with him. If I had to pick an order though, at this point it'd still be the jesuits.
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  8. #28
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raz View Post
    I'm just writing a quick post and I'll elaborate more later. My family, mother and father's side are all Catholic. I was raised in the Catholic church. However, as I went through my teen years, and I learned more about myself and the world, I realized how narrow minded I was being. Without the help of religion, I build my life around logic and practicality. I have a responsibility to myself to push my own thought process, challenge my viewpoints and learn about outside viewpoints.

    As an ISTJ, using those principles, I just couldn't take in Catholicism anymore. I started to realize how much religion was debated and uncertain in the world and I couldn't allow myself to have "faith" in something that I could easy find reasons not to believe in. I held a higher respect for logically criticizing viewpoints rather than the church. I'm not bashing current believers, but as I learned more about myself and my own standards, I couldn't do it anymore.

    I'm not sure what I believe. I tend to think of myself as Agnostic, but to me, it seems like there's still so much for us as a race to learn about our own minds and the universe that goes far beyond our current constructs of religion. Anyway, that's it. I'll add more later.
    We're on the exact same page, except I was raised non-denominational Christian and not Catholic.

  9. #29
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    I too was raised Catholic. I don't practice it as much today but I don't/didn't really have a problem with it.

  10. #30
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    I, too, was raised Roman Catholic, only to abandon it by the time I finished college. I eventually abandoned Christianity as a whole, bit by bit, like peeling away the layers of an onion until nothing more was left. Oddly, my first disappointment with the RC church came when I realized just how much of its own rich tradition it had turned its back on. As Andrew Greeley (priest and novelist) has commented, the RC church was for centuries the patron of some of the best music written, but in modern times, it has patronized junk. The old Latin mass, full of symbolism and ritual theater, was replaced by sloppy "folk masses" in many places. And most priests I've known can't preach their way out of a paper bag. When I got older, I could not accept the pervasive gender bias, and the clinging to archaic policies like priestly celibacy, and reproductive limitations.

    Later I became involved in a progressive protestant church where many of these issues weren't present (it took my breath away the first time I saw girl acolytes). I came to realize that, even underneath the superficial trappings and organizatioal procedures, I just didn't believe the stuff. The idea of a virgin birth, physical resurrection, or the need for someone to die to save people from sin seemed nonsensical. When I discovered that these themes are present in the myths of many other faiths and civilizations, the tendency of Christians -- even intelligent, educated Christians -- to interpret them literally became especially perplexing.

    My spiritual journey took many unpredictable twists and turns after that. While I have not now come full circle, I have come to understand what parts of Christianity and Catholicism in particular still do resonate, and enable me tap into that higher power, collective subconscious, God, whatever. I appreciate Christianity on the whole far more now that I no longer feel the need to try to be a Christian.

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