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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure Hybels and the guys you're bitching about read Tolstoy.
    They probably appreciate Dostoevsky more though.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    I was raised christian (free methodist was the church we went to, but my parents were a little more young-earth, fundamentalist, literal-bible christian than that church, I think). So pretty much as strict as the catholics, or even more so than some types of catholics. My mom is actually religious to the point of being somewhat crazy from my perspective - she has thrown out birthday gifts (mainstream books and dvds) to my sisters (ages 17 and 19) because she thought these things were "inspired by the devil". Anyway.

    Like many people I know, I stopped agreeing with the structure of religion and refused to go to church when I was old enough to reason fairly well, maybe age 10 (though my parents forced me to go until I really dug my heels in around age 12-14). It took me a little longer to question the existance of god, perhaps 5 years later. In the meantime I didn't really think about it either way.

    Now I consider myself agnostically atheist - I won't consider the existance of a god until evidence suggests it, though I don't think we can rule it out either, but for now I act as though there is no god. I am really cynical about organized religion though, particularly the not-so-subtle classification of women as (distantly) second citizens in most religions. It suits the interests of primitive male religious leaders too well for me to believe it could be inspired by god.
    -end of thread-

  3. #13
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    there are just so many ways to look at religion. why do we need it? if w can't outright see proof of the method of our creation, apparently there still is mystery. i allow for that mystery but i refuse to allow for speculation. why does religion even have to be about everyday morals and guidelines? are we too inept or afraid to teach ourselves?

    to me, creation is too essential and basic to us as a race that i just don't understand the point of speculation if the information hasn't been supplied to us. we're really so insignificant compared to the universe. so many things that happen that people explain away with religion such as miracles could be either chance, logic or things in our universe that we havent come to comprehend or experience yet.

    if you really think about how people use their belief in god to provide personal peace, they could be doing it the same way as everyone but just using the world god as a cover for a set of feelings they are experiencing.


  4. #14
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I was raised christian (free methodist was the church we went to, but my parents were a little more young-earth, fundamentalist, literal-bible christian than that church, I think). So pretty much as strict as the catholics, or even more so than some types of catholics. My mom is actually religious to the point of being somewhat crazy from my perspective - she has thrown out birthday gifts (mainstream books and dvds) to my sisters (ages 17 and 19) because she thought these things were "inspired by the devil". Anyway.

    Like many people I know, I stopped agreeing with the structure of religion and refused to go to church when I was old enough to reason fairly well, maybe age 10 (though my parents forced me to go until I really dug my heels in around age 12-14). It took me a little longer to question the existance of god, perhaps 5 years later. In the meantime I didn't really think about it either way.

    Now I consider myself agnostically atheist - I won't consider the existance of a god until evidence suggests it, though I don't think we can rule it out either, but for now I act as though there is no god. I am really cynical about organized religion though, particularly the not-so-subtle classification of women as (distantly) second citizens in most religions. It suits the interests of primitive male religious leaders too well for me to believe it could be inspired by god.
    You might try reading this. I've heard it is good.

    The case for Christ: a journalist's personal investigation of the evidence for Jesus [Book]

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  5. #15
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    I relate to what the OP says... though I wasn't raised Catholic by my family (which was completely non-religious in between flirtations with the Jehovah's Witnesses), the literature I grew up reading in the very isolated conditions in which I lived, "raised" me as a medieval Catholic.

    I spent my teens and 20's searching and trying to join a church that no longer exists. I found a close cousin to it in the Anglo-Catholic tradition, but then became disillusioned with organised religion in general. I trained as a priest, spent years dreaming of being a monk... joined the Society of St Francis and spent much time in Assisi and, though I no longer call myself a Christian, I somehow can't stop being a Franciscan... funny, eh?

    I spent a while irked at this "not knowing what it is I believe" thing, until I came to peace with it... I realised that being bothered by it was, in itself, a sign of Catholic hangovers in me... needing to have a defined, organised catechism and all that - who says you need to? The church, that's who. Well, so what?

    I've spent the last few years lone ranger-ing it really... recently I came across Peter Rollins, a pretty radical theologian, it seems - I like some of what he says and that's the most I'll say of anything... I guess I've lost the need though, to "do religion" in groups, organisations etc...
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
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  6. #16
    Senior Member Phoenix_400's Avatar
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    I was raised southern baptist in a very small farming community (though we actually went to a methodist church for a while because it was closer...Couldn't really tell much of a difference). I started questioning things in my very early teens. There was just so much hypocrisy and everyone was so closed-minded, I couldn't stand it. I twisted in the wind for a bit and did some studying and a lot of soul-searching. I've finally found my niche in more Eastern philosophies. I believe in a higher power, but I'm also a firm believer in Balance and Karma.

    I have a hard time with written scripture (Bible, Koran, etc.) There's so many people that take it so literally, but the Bible was written by the hands of man, not God. Its been translated over and over through the ages, in times when only the clergy and royals could even read. Wouldn't be hard to fudge a few lines and twist things around. Fear of divine retribution is a good way to keep people subjugated. There's more in my beliefs beyond that but I doubt anyone wants to hear me ramble too long.

    If you take a close look, most major religions have 2 things in common:
    1.) Belief in a higher power. (God, Allah, Mother Earth, etc.)
    2.) Some variation of The Golden Rule. (Do unto others, live in harmony, respect nature, etc)
    I think we spend too much time focusing on how we're different than on how we're the same. I've got a theory on this that I spent a bit of time developing.

    As for me, I try to find Balance. I'll respect beliefs of others as long as they don't bring harm to their fellow man and they are willing to respect the beliefs of myself and others as well (I'm a 'live and let live' type, I guess). I'll stay true to myself and try to do right by others. When my time comes, I'll leave it up to the Creator to decide what I deserve. I may be a cocky bastard sometimes, but I'm not arrogant enough to believe I know for certain what a divine being wants from me.

    And now I do something that is quite rare for me indeed, quote scripture (I don't remember a lot, but this is something that stuck in my head at an early age):

    Romans 11:33-34
    33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments,and his paths beyond tracing out!
    34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became his counselor?

    Or to quote from the movie Dogma:

    Rufus: He still digs humanity, but it bothers Him to see the shit that gets carried out in His name - wars, bigotry, televangelism. But especially the factioning of all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it.

    Bethany: Having beliefs isn't good?

    Rufus: I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant.

    ....When that movie 1st came out, I had to sneak it into the house and watch it at night after my parents went to bed.
    "People in glass houses shouldn't use Windex when living near bird sanctuaries."- myself

    "We are never alone my friend. We are constantly in the company of victories, losses, strengths and weaknesses. Make no mistake, life is war...and war is hell. Those who fight the hardest will suffer the most...but that's what you have to do: Fight. As long as you're feeling pain, then there's hope...because only the dead do not suffer." -RD Metcalf
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  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm pretty sure Hybels and the guys you're bitching about read Tolstoy.
    They probably appreciate Dostoevsky more though.
    Aye likely but the point about Tolstoy was that he set himself up as opposing the ideas about grace or salvation mentioned in the wiki.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    classification of women as (distantly) second citizens in most religions. It suits the interests of primitive male religious leaders too well for me to believe it could be inspired by god.
    What about organised athiesm? What is organised religion BTW? What's unorganised religion? Is it religion or culture which determines the patriarchal nature of things?

  9. #19
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    What about organised athiesm?
    ??????

    Atheism describes (roughly) how I think. It's a description, not a set of rules and guidelines.
    What is organised religion BTW? What's unorganised religion? Is it religion or culture which determines the patriarchal nature of things?
    I'm referring to the broad areas of christianity/catholicism, judaism and islam.

    I'm very aware that not all the individual sects of organized religion practice being oppressive/demeaning to women, but the original texts ARE. At least to me, although I'm aware that many religious women are just fine with following hubby's orders, since god made him the leader of the house.
    -end of thread-

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by proximo View Post
    I relate to what the OP says... though I wasn't raised Catholic by my family (which was completely non-religious in between flirtations with the Jehovah's Witnesses), the literature I grew up reading in the very isolated conditions in which I lived, "raised" me as a medieval Catholic.

    I spent my teens and 20's searching and trying to join a church that no longer exists. I found a close cousin to it in the Anglo-Catholic tradition, but then became disillusioned with organised religion in general. I trained as a priest, spent years dreaming of being a monk... joined the Society of St Francis and spent much time in Assisi and, though I no longer call myself a Christian, I somehow can't stop being a Franciscan... funny, eh?

    I spent a while irked at this "not knowing what it is I believe" thing, until I came to peace with it... I realised that being bothered by it was, in itself, a sign of Catholic hangovers in me... needing to have a defined, organised catechism and all that - who says you need to? The church, that's who. Well, so what?

    I've spent the last few years lone ranger-ing it really... recently I came across Peter Rollins, a pretty radical theologian, it seems - I like some of what he says and that's the most I'll say of anything... I guess I've lost the need though, to "do religion" in groups, organisations etc...
    I think it sounds like you are what I would define as a cultural RC, I know lots of people who are enthralled by the medievalism or other cultural aspects of the Church or history without believing the religion or experiencing any personal revelation as a result of having the religion as an original platform.

    Can I ask what the books are? I've had similar experiences you know, its what prevents me joining any of the orders that I'm interested in, like The Jesuits.

    Well that and I could no way in hell keep a vow of chastity.

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