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  1. #11
    Senior Member Phoenix_400's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Sure thing.
    Y'all keep your hands off my TARDIS or I'll make sure you were never born.

    This is upsetting. I need to cool down.

    :Gets in his Delorean and goes for a relaxing Sunday drive...through ancient Greece:
    "People in glass houses shouldn't use Windex when living near bird sanctuaries."- myself

    "We are never alone my friend. We are constantly in the company of victories, losses, strengths and weaknesses. Make no mistake, life is war...and war is hell. Those who fight the hardest will suffer the most...but that's what you have to do: Fight. As long as you're feeling pain, then there's hope...because only the dead do not suffer." -RD Metcalf
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  2. #12
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
    Btw, wormholes exist all around us..but in microscopic scale..the trick would be to make one big enough for us to go through.
    I've read it's impossible because of the radiation feedback.
    Wouldn't bet on it though, the whole theory of time travel is beyond my comprehension.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Reflection's Avatar
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    Isn't there a theory about time travel that says that even if we built a time machine capable of transporting humans, we could only travel as far back as the moment of production of the first time machine? Which would in and of itself bring about a paradox. Unless you account for multiple timelines theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix_400 View Post
    Y'all keep your hands off my TARDIS or I'll make sure you were never born.

    This is upsetting. I need to cool down.

    :Gets in his Delorean and goes for a relaxing Sunday drive...through ancient Greece:
    *backs away slowly*

    Aleksei... keep the TARDIS nearby, I fear we'll need it to escape.
    Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it.

  4. #14
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    In scientific theory, the future is understood as a time-space stacked on top of our own like a sheet of paper, and accorded the same level of presence as the present in its more immediate sense. A genuine experience of the future, however, gives us what might be described as an imaginary point toward which motion is oriented, or in more direct terms, simple possibility (which includes goals, predictions, omens, certainties, and beliefs). The definitive trait of a possibility is that it's an answer to a question, where that question springs from the present, the present being that which we question or doubt in spite of its adequacy (or truth).* The future, by being a form of presence, is also in question; even the expectation that my front yard hasn't vanished falls to doubt in the sense that I'm only expecting it and waiting for it to prove itself, or perhaps just assuming it (which is a form of self-doubt).

    In what sense can an expectation determine the present? If I expect the sun to rise tomorrow, the sun isn't presently in the sky; I have not determined anything except my own thoughts. And when the sun does rise, there is certainly no equivalence between my earlier expectation and the sense of relief, indifference, or self-assuredness I get when the sun actually does rise. I may remember my thoughts in great detail, certainly, but those thoughts are not, and can't be, the world before me; in a manner of speaking, my thoughts are inside that world, along with my silent appreciation of the truth that they reach out to and embrace, a truth that is something new in the world in spite of being anticipated.

    If my prophecies, whether about the sun or about sending back information through a time machine, were actually to "determine" the course of the future in advance (and I hesitate to even say that, because it's incoherent), it would be as though a spell had come over things and they no longer had any alternative but to obey me; I myself would fall under the spell, too, for I would have no choice but to follow the law set down by my earlier self. In short, I would become a kind of god, and not only that, but both the present and the past would vanish, neither of them having a place in which the future is already actualized as the sum total of existence, and everything would become a static image of the future that I foresaw. It would be very much like a dream, with that same sense of timelessness about it that can only exist by attaching itself, like a symbiote, to the waking flow of time.

    So as usual, we see scientists proposing things that make very little sense and which certainly won't work out as they expect. If they get anything out of this at all, they'll receive information from "alternate universes" based on the path our history would have taken had we not received that information.

    * This is the basic difference between "subject" and "object": an object is a raw truth in the face of which we remain silent while a subject is a dialogue about that truth that renders it insufficient, which is to say, in doubt; the two, if properly understood, are not separate acts but superimposed over one another like a pair of blended colors; as this juxtaposition can only be known by thinking about it--that is, by embedding it within the structure thought-about-the-coincidence-of-thought-and-truth, the unity of subject and object presents itself as a unity which at the very same instant must be lost (which is to say cut through with disunity) by a further act of subjectivity on which it depends; thought is a negation of truth, and this negation is at once negated by a further negation in order to assert itself as something rather than nothing (a negative is nothingness, and a negated nothing is a positive). This something nevertheless retains its power of negation, the nothing being not eliminated but filled in like a mold, with the result of "true doubt," a "subject-object," or, as it's most commonly known, an ego.

    ** Those words I just spoke were purely true when I was speaking them, but I can only know I was truly speaking them by looking back at them (I could also look ahead and plan to speak such words in the future); this is the meaning of the structure thought-about-the-coincidence-of-thought-and-truth; the unity of doubt and truth (or presence) is always embedded within the context of a past or a future--this unity is part and parcel to the structure of a past or a future--and in either case, the structure of the present so embedded is turned inside out, so to speak, so that our doubts about the present take on a positive quality, whereas at first they were negations of the present without any positivity about them. This fact can only be known on reflection, which negates negations, making them positive; it is never true in the actual present, and in fact there is no actual present except the one implicit in such a reflective consciousness on the present; even that implicit present, when it was or will be present in an actual sense, was or will be a reflective consciousness on another implicit present rather than a pure presence without any foundation in reflective consciousness; hence, it isn't the past and the future that are illusions, as some have said, but more correctly the temporal present, for, just like a mirage, it vanishes at the moment we step to it.
    Last edited by Polaris; 06-21-2010 at 01:07 AM. Reason: Improved clarity
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  5. #15
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    great scott!!
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  6. #16
    Member Cheshire Grin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
    Btw, wormholes exist all around us..but in microscopic scale..the trick would be to make one big enough for us to go through. Wormholes can not only connect different parts of this universe, but other parallel (and not parallel) universes as well.
    Reading this made me think about that knife in Pullman's trilogy that could be used to search for weaknesses in the air to open up windows to other worlds. Oh, how those books defined my childhood.

    The time machine reminded me of this:
    The question isn’t who is going to let me; it’s who is going to stop me. --A. Rand

  7. #17
    Senior Member Chris_in_Orbit's Avatar
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    ^^^ love it




    So my question is, would there ever be a time after the time machine is built?

    If what he's saying is true, then the moment he turns on the time machine would be sort of a trap wouldn't it?

    You get something from the future that in turn alters that future which would produce another future that sends something to the past that alters it again... am I wrong?

    If it kept happening like that in a loop, there would be no definite future would there?

  8. #18
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    There never is a definite future. The future (and matter itself) exists only as a cloud of probability, and doesn't take definite form until someone observes it. I shit you not.
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  9. #19
    Senior Member Chris_in_Orbit's Avatar
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    Interesting read, but it raises more questions...

    In terms of what you are saying though, would there be something to observe once the time machine is built? Would each step take a sensible (logical) step forward?

    I can see it as either being stuck or the next observable step would be something so out of sequence it would be mind boggling.

    It's fine and nice to say things like there is no definite future, but where are all these parallel universes where the improbable is happening?...

    Maybe it just comes down to the fact that my consciousness is only a very tiny sliver of all that there is, and for something to happen that is improbable is probably even more improbable for me or anyone else to observe.


    New question: Ignore the "definite" part of my question. Is there a future after a time machine of this sort is built?

  10. #20
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    I have no idea. I hope so, actually being able to travel through time would be boss.

    Though I guess a time machine could plausibly move forward despite time uncertainty, by fast-forwarding time so to speak (which is the principle under which H.G. Wells' time machine operated, although I have no idea how it went back).

    EDIT- On further reflection, I suppose the possibility exists that if you traveled through time by jumping forward through a wormhole or something, a new reality will simply emerge as you observe it.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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