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  1. #11
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    I think a being capable of creating the universe from nothing is quite capable of existing independent of whether such pathetic creatures as ourselves choose to believe in said being. This debate is not very interesting to me for the simple reason that humans cannot under any reasonable philosophical model cause an eternal, omnipotent and omnipresent being to be "dead" any more than they can cause it to be "alive". They can believe or disbelieve in it, as they choose, but its existence or non-existence will nevertheless be independent of what people choose to concoct in their own minds. "I/we/society does not believe in God" does not equate to "God does not exist."

    Oberon and Fmw, good points by the way.
    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

  2. #12
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    I agree and disagree. Many of our governmental structures and social structures are based on theological axioms (if not deistic axioms). Or, rather, they allow for religious freedom, but as time has elapsed, they have demanded that religion be a separate entity from state. So now people are torn between their own faiths and the state, and once the faiths are expunged, the state will be the only common denominator. So what was once religious freedom soon becomes religious oppression.
    I don't think the increased faith in government is a function of government, not even in the US (where the process is as you describe). I think the increased faith in government is an outgrowth of a variety of 19th- and 20th-century ideas working to their ultimate conclusions. The industrial revolution and the incredible burst of technology that accompanied it made the world look increasingly different. Entire generations of people were born in the era of the steam railroad, and died in the era of the jet airplane. Along with this great change came philosophical ideas with real-world ramifications, such as Darwin's premise in The Origin of Species which appeared at first glance to eliminate the need for a Creator. Existentialism was a consequence of Darwin and Marxism was a consequence of the Industrial Revolution. Man and Man's achievements increasingly became the center of Man's world, and God became smaller and smaller in the average person's cognitive map.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    On a side note, do you think there is a trend in youth becoming lazier because they expect the government to swoop in and save them?
    For some that's true. Others think that unless they look out for themselves, nobody else will do it for them, and do not even expect to ever be able to collect Social Security. In other words, I think today's youth are divided into two camps: Those who expect a socio-economic apocalypse within the next two decades, and those who don't.

  3. #13
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    I think a being capable of creating the universe from nothing is quite capable of existing independent of whether such pathetic creatures as ourselves choose to believe in said being. This debate is not very interesting to me for the simple reason that humans cannot under any reasonable philosophical model cause an eternal, omnipotent and omnipresent being to be "dead" any more than they can cause it to be "alive".

    Oberon and Fmw, good points by the way.
    I think you're looking at this backwards. We create our on symbols for how we understand the world. So it is us that exist, and by our own subconscious platform, we extend our knowledge further in a way that emulates creation. This subconscious platform is considered to be the throne of God for many, as our mental hands reach out and name all of creation from it.

  4. #14
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Man and Man's achievements increasingly became the center of Man's world, and God became smaller and smaller in the average person's cognitive map.
    Is it a tautology?

  5. #15
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    I think you're looking at this backwards. We create our on symbols for how we understand the world. So it is us that exist, and by our own subconscious platform, we extend our knowledge further in a way that emulates creation. This subconscious platform is considered to be the throne of God for many, as our mental hands reach out and name all of creation from it.
    No, YOU'RE looking at it backwards, in choosing to regard the concept of the divine as purely a human construct, which means you've already arrived at your conclusion before you even begin to examine the question.
    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

  6. #16
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    You guys need to rub one out.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  7. #17
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Is it a tautology?
    Only if you've already bought into the worldview.

  8. #18
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    No, YOU'RE looking at it backwards, in choosing to regard the concept of the divine as purely a human construct, which means you've already arrived at your conclusion before you even begin to examine the question.

  9. #19
    Oberon
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    I kind of hate to point this out, but ragashree and I seemed to have arrived at the same conclusion... see my previous post.

  10. #20
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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