Stephen Frys Beautiful words on a world without God

[Lark]

Indeed, it is your opinion. Your opinion (or "claim") is false.

No its not.

 

[Helios]

No its not.

cf. my first post in this thread. How old are you, by the way?

 

[Zangetshumody]

The dichotomy presented here, between atheism and theism is not really relevant to the purpose of the conversation. If the general topic is 'what demeans the human soul?', it is worth pointing out that atheism is not a sufficient condition for enlightenment but merely a necessary condition. Authoritarian political systems eradicating ideologies that turn people into credulous serfs deprived of even the basic intellectual resource of skeptical thought might impel you to fashion a misleading generalization about atheism, but that is all its going to be.

I wish people would stop referring to the USSR as Communists, bloody American high school history teachers >.>

 

[kevrawlings]

"If there is only one possible unified theory - that is just a set of rules and equations - what is it that breathes fire into those equations and creates a universe for them to describe? Why does a universe go to all of the bother of existing? Is a unified theory so compelling that it brings about its own existence, or does it need a creator?" - Stephen Hawking

"God does not play dice." - Einstein

"“The gift of mental power comes from God, Divine Being, and if we concentrate our minds on that truth, we become in tune with this great power. My Mother had taught me to seek all truth in the Bible.” - Nikola Tesla

Three men who arguably understood the material world better than any other individuals in history, and they still didn't see it necessary to adopt a short-sighted, secular, materialist world view. They understood that the universe is more than a mechanical dance of atoms, and that their discoveries were only humble attempts to understand the mind of God.

Keep speaking the truth, Lark.

 

[FigerPuppet]

"If there is only one possible unified theory - that is just a set of rules and equations - what is it that breathes fire into those equations and creates a universe for them to describe? Why does a universe go to all of the bother of existing? Is a unified theory so compelling that it brings about its own existence, or does it need a creator?" - Stephen Hawking

"God does not play dice." - Einstein

"“The gift of mental power comes from God, Divine Being, and if we concentrate our minds on that truth, we become in tune with this great power. My Mother had taught me to seek all truth in the Bible.” - Nikola Tesla

Three men who arguably understood the material world better than any other individuals in history, and they still didn't see it necessary to adopt a short-sighted, secular, materialist world view. They understood that the universe is more than a mechanical dance of atoms.

Beautiful words are not necessarily true ones, that's why it's called the *ART* of rhetoric. Keep speaking the truth, Lark.

Did you even read - not skim - the quote by Stephen Hawking? Do you understand the context in which Einstein made that statement? No, to both. Take your appeal to authority and go sit facing the wall, boy.

 

[kevrawlings]

I've actually had the Hawking quote memorized for years, it's my all time favorite quotation. No joke, man. As for the Einstein quote, it stands independent of context and couldn't be more self-explanatory. What God do you think he was referring to?

and geez . . . I thought it was the creationists who were bullying the education system, as a teacher, I recommend you never get a job teaching.

I can see it now, (in a feigned English accent of course) "Take your bronze age myths and sit facing the wall you little prick! God is dead! No talk like that in my classroom!" lol

 

[spin-1/2-nuclei]

Did you even read - not skim - the quote by Stephen Hawking? Do you understand the context in which Einstein made that statement? No, to both. Take your appeal to authority and go sit facing the wall, boy.

This is what Einstein thought about god according to himself - "I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God."
—Albert Einstein

This quote can be found here - Albert Einstein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

furthermore I fail to see how any link from any source no matter how intelligent or religious could be an appeal to authority in this particular case because you are discussing belief systems that cannot be proven or even quantified...

 

[kevrawlings]

That's a great quote!

 

[FigerPuppet]

This is what Einstein thought about god according to himself - "I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God."
—Albert Einstein

Nice quote.

[...] you are discussing belief systems that cannot be proven or even quantified...

kevrawlings doesn't seem to agree with this.

 

[kevrawlings]

I do, in fact, ever heard of blind faith?

 

[FigerPuppet]

I do, in fact, ever heard of blind faith?

Yes, but you were clearly using the quotes as some kind of argument against atheism.

 

[spin-1/2-nuclei]

I do, in fact, ever heard of blind faith?

You see this is where I think a lot of atheist and agnostics get their panties in a bunch... It's very difficult for some people to comprehend blind faith... One of my best friends is extremely religious and we have discussions about his faith all of the time... he doesn't try to evangelize me and I don't try to subject his beliefs to the scientific method... If people can place their own personal beliefs aside for a moment you can really learn a lot about the belief systems of others... if you get past the need to convert the other person to your own personal point of view it really is interesting to learn what many different people have to say about religion etc... I personally find the concept of blind faith fascinating and have the utmost respect for people that are able to adhere to this.

 

[kevrawlings]

Yes, but you were clearly using the quotes as some kind of argument against atheism.

Yes, clearly, not against atheists, but atheism.

 

[FigerPuppet]

Yes, clearly, not against atheists, but atheism.

 

[kevrawlings]

Willy Wonka, my favorite INTJ! "So shines a good deed in a weary world."

. . . other than the whole luring children into his candy factory and then murdering them en masse thing.

 

[spin-1/2-nuclei]

Yes, but you were clearly using the quotes as some kind of argument against atheism.

I think it would only be natural for a christian to argue against atheism just as it is natural for an atheist to argue against religion, but where these debates tend to go wrong is in lieu of accepting the arguments at face value and prior to entering the discussion accepting that no common ground will be reached - only greater understanding - people instead get batshit insane and start launching attacks on one another's battleships...

Then nobody can hear over the noise and... by the end of the conversation nothing has been gained. It's just my opinion, but these conversations are typically much more productive when each person refrains from taking the statements of the other personally...

Obviously you can still have disagreements regarding religions... Two cannon lawyers might disagree on the interpretation of a law or some people may disagree about the interpretation of the bible... but those cases are hardly the equivalent of discussing personal religious beliefs that again cannot be quantified or even proven... whereas when you are arguing specifically about differences within the same religion the certain assumptions are already accepted as true...

just my two cents..

 

[kevrawlings]

True, true.

 

[Mole]

The very nicest thing about the conversation between atheists and theists is that it is the never-ending-conversation.

The conversation can never be resolved and so our conversation will never come to an end.

The internet provides us with the means for the never-ending-conversation, and atheism versus theism provide us with the excuse.

So atheism versus theism gives us a little taste of immortality.

 

[kevrawlings]

Yes, but that same argument goes on ad infinitum in peoples minds anyway, so it's just as arbitrary to have the debate with another person.

Inside of me is a small voice that is skeptical of Christianity, and inside of "Smileyman" is a small voice that is intrigued by the idea of faith and a creator.

Not schizophrenic here, I hope it's clear that by voices I mean thoughts.

Also, this debate won't go on much longer if Smileyman insists on arguing in pictures. ZING!

 

[spin-1/2-nuclei]

The very nicest thing about the conversation between atheists and theists is that it is the never-ending-conversation.

The conversation can never be resolved and so our conversation will never come to an end.

The internet provides us with the means for the never-ending-conversation, and atheism versus theism provide us with the excuse.

So atheism versus theism gives us a little taste of immortality.

I guess I don't see it that way.. when I converse with my devoutly catholic friends or muslim, jewish, buddhist acquaintances I don't seek to change their belief systems but learn about them and understand the whys of what they believe... they don't try to convert me and thus our conversations do have a beginning and an end and even a purpose on occasion... My catholic friend and muslim acquaintance were talking for hours one night about the fundamental differences between christianity and islam and some of the similarities as well... It was quite interesting and nobody raised their voice or resulted to personal attacks even once... It's really no different then listening to someone talk about why they like spicy food while someone else explains why they dislike it or discussing differences in musical tastes so long as all parties involved can remain respectful of the other's position, recognize the subjective nature of the conversation, and resist any urges to convert, enlighten, or change...

this is of course just the way I see it you are free to argue these issues whichever way you see fit..