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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Yes, Kev and Spin, I am drawing the distinction between conversation and violence.
    I'm going to be honest Victor I have no idea what you're talking about and this is where I stopped reading your post... I wasn't referring to violence, just conversation..

    Not sure where you're getting that from? The battleship thing was a metaphor - if that's even what you're referring to... I honestly and truly have no idea...
    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    watch where you're driving f$cktards! I have the right of way!!! :steam:

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevrawlings View Post
    He [God] could be considered the most paternal figure.
    Almost patriarchal.

  3. #73
    Senior Member kevrawlings's Avatar
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    Sorry guys, I've been drinking and it's gonna get a lot less pedantic and articulate from here. Not that I'm anywhere near drunk, but they do say that a drunk tounge speaks a sober mind . . . soooo.

    The horses mouth being the person that said it. Fact: Hawking said what I said he said.
    Einstein said what I said he said as well, and I'm no Einstein, but if he said it, I'd say that scores some points for theism.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by spin-1/2-nuclei View Post
    I'm going to be honest Victor I have no idea what you're talking about and this is where I stopped reading your post... I wasn't referring to violence, just conversation..

    Not sure where you're getting that from? The battleship thing was a metaphor - if that's even what you're referring to... I honestly and truly have no idea...
    I wasn't referring to anything you have written, I was simply expressing my own convictions.

  5. #75
    Senior Member kevrawlings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Almost patriarchal.
    Exactly.

  6. #76
    Senior Member Helios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevrawlings View Post

    Either way, unless you're talkin polytheism, God is God is God is God. The theories vary, but the God remains.

    Einsteins quote stands unscathed and still supports theism.
    If Einstein was a theist at all, he was a disinterested deist, not a believer in your anthropomorphic deity. This is a nuance that should be not be casually dismissed.

    Moreover, your claim that the quotation you provide from Einstein "supports" theism is misguided and naive, and would be dismissed as ludicrous by an informed theist. For you commit this well known fallacy:


    "We make an appeal to authority whenever we try to justify an idea by citing some source of expertise as a reason for holding that idea. Appeals to authority are often valid, as when we tell someone to use a certain medicine because the doctor has prescribed it. But appeals to authority can be fallacious, as when we cite those who have no special competence regarding the matter at hand. The fallacy of appeal to authority, therefore, is an argument that attempts to overawe an opponent into accepting a conclusion by playing on his or her reluctance to challenge famous people, time-honored customs, or widely held beliefs. The fallacy appeals, at base, to our feelings of modesty, to our sense that others know better than we do."

    (S. Morris Engel (2000), With Good Reason: An Introduction to Informal Fallacies, 6th ed., New York: Bedford/St. Martin's, pp.238-239.)

    There are many academic means available to a theist who wishes to inform him or herself of good reasons for believing in a god of sophisticated monotheism. Trudging through archives of excerpts from famous academics in an attempt to find quotations sympathetic to theism in general, and Christianity in particular, would be imprudent of such a theist.

  7. #77
    Senior Member kevrawlings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helios View Post
    If Einstein was a theist at all, he was a disinterested deist, not a believer in your anthropomorphic deity. This is a nuance that should be not be casually dismissed.

    Moreover, your claim that the quotation you provide from Einstein "supports" theism is misguided and naive, and would be dismissed as ludicrous by an informed theist. For you commit this well known fallacy:


    "We make an appeal to authority whenever we try to justify an idea by citing some source of expertise as a reason for holding that idea. Appeals to authority are often valid, as when we tell someone to use a certain medicine because the doctor has prescribed it. But appeals to authority can be fallacious, as when we cite those who have no special competence regarding the matter at hand. The fallacy of appeal to authority, therefore, is an argument that attempts to overawe an opponent into accepting a conclusion by playing on his or her reluctance to challenge famous people, time-honored customs, or widely held beliefs. The fallacy appeals, at base, to our feelings of modesty, to our sense that others know better than we do."

    (S. Morris Engel (2000), With Good Reason: An Introduction to Informal Fallacies, 6th ed., New York: Bedford/St. Martin's, pp.238-239.)

    There are many academic means available to a theist who wishes to inform him or herself of good reasons for believing in a god of sophisticated monotheism. Trudging through archives of excerpts from famous academics in an attempt to find quotations sympathetic to theism in general, and Christianity in particular, would be imprudent of such a theist.
    LOL Yeah, he was so disinterested that he whittled away his golden years and died alone in his attic trying to discover a grand unified theory. I'd say he was pretty interested in God and his works, arguably the most interested person of the last century.

    And your writing style is so formal, geez-loueez. Let your point stand on its own without all of the ornamentation.

    If you wanted to cite a better rebuttal to an appeal to authority, you should have cited Milgram.

    The Einstein quote does support theism, just as the statement, "cars have wheels", supports the idea of the existence of cars. If I didn't believe in cars, I wouldn't have made the statement, especially from someone who was as careful with his words as Einstein was. After all, Dawkins doesn't talk about God, only the "idea" or "concept" of God. He would never say a statement that used God as a flat fact.

  8. #78
    Senior Member kevrawlings's Avatar
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    If anyone reading this is more reputable than Einstein, Tesla, or Hawking, please comment and contradict them.

    And please, people, stop bringing my Christianity into play - because I never did. We are talking theism/atheism here - nothing more. Because, for some people, that's a big leap.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I wasn't referring to anything you have written, I was simply expressing my own convictions.
    Victor is there someone else in this thread that you're calling spin in the "Kev, and Spin" portion of your post that appears in the quoted text version of my previous post?
    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    watch where you're driving f$cktards! I have the right of way!!! :steam:

  10. #80
    Senior Member Helios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevrawlings View Post
    LOL Yeah, he was so disinterested that he whittled away his golden years and died alone in his attic trying to discover a grand unified theory. I'd say he was pretty interested in God and his works, arguably the most interested person of the last century.
    I don't believe I claimed that he was disinterested in the natural world, but rather in god-worship, rituals, doctrines, sacraments, rigid ethical precepts and every other religious addition.

    Quote Originally Posted by kevrawlings View Post
    And your writing style is so formal, geez-loueez. Let your point stand on its own without all of the ornamentation.
    I don't understand what you're trying to say here. However, you may benefit from looking at my profile information; what you perceive as "ornamentation" is likely me trying to be clear and precise, notwithstanding my inability to do so to my level of satisfaction.

    Quote Originally Posted by kevrawlings View Post
    If you wanted to cite a better rebuttal to an appeal to authority, you should have cited Milgram.
    There is no need to "rebut" an appeal to authority; it is an informal fallacy, and that is all there is to the matter. The quotation served to show that you were committing the fallacy.

    I'm also a bit puzzled about your mentioning of Milgram*. Many of the participants in his experiments claimed that an authority figure (e.g. doctor) had told them to administer (apparently) painful and eventually lethal electrical voltages to who they believed was another participant in the experiment, and that the doctor's command itself was adequate justification for doing so. This is, at most, tangentially relevant.


    Quote Originally Posted by kevrawlings View Post
    The Einstein quote does support theism, just as the statement, "cars have wheels", supports the idea of the existence of cars. If I didn't believe in cars, I wouldn't have made the statement, especially from someone who was as careful with his words as Einstein was.
    This strikes me as confused. I agree that the quotation from Einstein strongly suggests that he believed in a god, as he appears to need to assume that one exists in order for his statement to be comprehensible. Nevertheless, what Einstein believed about theism is irrelevant to the plausibility of theism. This is the point.

    I recommend that you read my first response to you in this thread more carefully.


    *Buy this book if you are interested in Milgram's experiments, by the way. It's a great read.

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