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  1. #21
    Senior Member Daedalus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yes they're ersatz religions, so what?
    I was replying to the post by lark, where he says that Nazism was atheistic. Its not, as my above posts points out very clearly


    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    That's largely speculation really. Given the basic nature of Medieval thinking and society, such mass slaughter would've been out of the question.
    There is only so much killing one can do, given medieval weapons. Contrast that to the Bombing of Dresden, or the firebombing of Japan.


    Furthermore, there is a HUGE difference between the intent behind the murders committed by Stalin/Mao (who were atheists) vis-a-vis the ones committed by religious crusades/jihads/inquisition/pogroms/terrorism etc etc

    The difference is that in the religious wars people were targeted because of their religion/or lack of one. The mass murders by Stalin and Mao were not targeted at any specific religious/non religious denomination. They murdered indiscriminately, which can be seen as ethnic/cultural wars rather than an "atheist" war. When did anyone get killed because he was a 'religious" person by atheists? Mao and Stalin are no different from some deranged person who shoots people in the mall, albeit in a larger scale.

    There is no evidence to associate atheism with the actions carried out by Mao and Stalin. Atheists don't have a "religious high command"/affiliation/branch or whatever....therefore individual actions by atheists are just that, actions of individuals. I didn't hear Stalin claiming that he is killing people in the name of "the universal church of atheism"..did you?


    religions on the other hand, when engaging in wars, take the "Kill them all, God will know his own" attitude.
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  2. #22
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
    There is only so much killing one can do, given medieval weapons. Contrast that to the Bombing of Dresden, or the firebombing of Japan.
    That is true, but you still cannot deny the stark contrasts between Medieval and modern thinking.

    Furthermore, there is a HUGE difference between the intent behind the murders committed by Stalin/Mao (who were atheists) vis-a-vis the ones committed by religious crusades/jihads/inquisition/pogroms/terrorism etc etc

    The difference is that in the religious wars people were targeted because of their religion/or lack of one. The mass murders by Stalin and Mao were not targeted at any specific religious/non religious denomination. They murdered indiscriminately, which can be seen as ethnic/cultural wars rather than an "atheist" war.
    To claim is to try to sophistically negate the role that anti-religious propaganda had in Communist regimes. It's not that hard to find examples of such.


    "The black ravens are preparing a brigand attack on the USSR. Proletariat be ready!"

    Then in one verse of this Red Army march makes open references to burning down churches and killing priests for the sake of building socialism:
    [youtube="xeOLisuJ3s0"]Red Army is the strongest in the world[/youtube]

    If you need to read more about this, check this link.

    When did anyone get killed because he was a 'religious" person by atheists?
    Here's a nice list for you, and this is just counting Orthodox Christians:
    Russian Hieromartyrs, Martyrs and Confessors of the Communist Yoke - 146 lives

  3. #23
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post

    There is only so much killing one can do, given medieval weapons. Contrast that to the Bombing of Dresden, or the firebombing of Japan.
    It's not just about the weapons available, but about the thinking of the times. Changes in methods of production, total warfare, and ideas like ethnic cleansing are later developments that change the scope of war. These developments make the grand slaughter possible, but putting into practice is the action of the person.

    And with the communist repression of religion, it's not a gigantic step to say there was a Soviet war against religion. And don't forget it was the likes of Nietzsche and Marx that later inspired liberating forces of Nazis and Soviets--history's two biggest monsters.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  4. #24
    Sniffles
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    Mark Sandle notes the adoption of "militant atheism" as part of the Communist program in his Short history of Soviet socialism

    It seems even Mikhail Gorbachev acknolwedged this:
    As Mikhail Gorbachev aptly stated, the Soviet communist state carried out a comprehensive “war on religion.” 1 He lamented that the Bolsheviks, his predecessors, even after the civil war ended in the early 1920s, during a time of “peace,” had “continued to tear down churches, arrest clergymen, and destroy them. This was no longer understandable or justifiable. Atheism took rather savage forms in our country at that time.” 2

    Special Exhibit | Global Museum on Communism
    I mean really, there's simply too many resources on the issue.

  5. #25
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    Here's another random gem of info:
    "After the Communists had made belief in Marxism one of the requirements for any public office, and even for getting into a Russian university, this joke was popular in Moscow: A student is asked by a professor, "What is God?" "God," says the student, "is a mistaken idea of the capitalistic class; there is no God." "Very good," says the professor; "you pass." "Thank God." the student exclaims."
    E.M. Halliday Russia in Revolution pg.124

  6. #26
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
    There is no evidence to associate atheism with the actions carried out by Mao and Stalin. Atheists don't have a "religious high command"/affiliation/branch or whatever....therefore individual actions by atheists are just that, actions of individuals. I didn't hear Stalin claiming that he is killing people in the name of "the universal church of atheism"..did you?

    There is no universal faith or beliefs atheist really share in common. Atheism is a negative position, it is a lack of belief and depending on the definition does not assert a position. The only thing atheist have in common is that they lack a belief in a supreme being. This is atheism in it's most general definition.

  7. #27
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robopop View Post
    There is no universal faith or beliefs atheist really share in common. Atheism is a negative position, it is a lack of belief and depending on the definition does not assert a position. The only thing atheist have in common is that they lack a belief in a supreme being. This is atheism in it's most general definition.
    That's true. But strong atheism, which represents a significant portion of self-described atheists, if not most, does outright deny God's existence. Weak atheism, or agnostic atheism, doesn't.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    That's true. But strong atheism, which represents a significant portion of self-described atheists, if not most, does outright deny God's existence. Weak atheism, or agnostic atheism, doesn't.
    I do tend to think that strong atheism is unreasonable because it makes the assertion that God does not exist without the proper evidence to prove this position. The only thing is, how do you prove a negative position, many people think this is impossible including me. So I think the more practical position to have would be to assert that God probably does not exist(even then, the probability of God's existence can vary greatly depending on the evidence or lack of). It would be like trying to prove that a green goblin on the other side of the universe does not exist. There's no practical way to show it does not exist right now and there's no evidence for it's existence either. The position I believe should be taken is to withhold belief until further evidence proves this assertion otherwise.(withholding is not the same as denying)

    I don't get the perception that most atheist hold the strong atheist position, I think most of them are smart enough to avoid the nasty logical implications of such a position(I hope so). I seem to hear the practical atheist(agnostic atheism) position more often which is a more reasonable one compared to the extreme" God doesn't exist at all and I know it" position.

  9. #29
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    It still has no appeal to me what so ever, although I've had major doubts more recently about my once certain religious convictions there is nothing beautiful or appealing what so ever about athiesm, it is not glorious, it is inglorious, it is a celebration of hopelessness and despair that others may be shaken and share in it too.
    I didn't listen to the clip, but responding to this post:

    I felt that way for awhile (after being steeped in conservative religion for much of my life), and then eventually existential thought all made sense to me and any depession associated with it went away, it actually took on a lot of depth and meaning to me that I've incorprated into my worldview.

    So who knows where you might end up?

    (Note: I'm best aligned as a Christian agnostic, not an atheist.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    It's not just about the weapons available, but about the thinking of the times. Changes in methods of production, total warfare, and ideas like ethnic cleansing are later developments that change the scope of war. These developments make the grand slaughter possible, but putting into practice is the action of the person.

    And with the communist repression of religion, it's not a gigantic step to say there was a Soviet war against religion. And don't forget it was the likes of Nietzsche and Marx that later inspired liberating forces of Nazis and Soviets--history's two biggest monsters.
    I'm not sure what abuses of particular philosophies of life have anything to do with what might actually be true... which is what I'm concerned about.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #30
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post


    I'm not sure what abuses of particular philosophies of life have anything to do with what might actually be true... which is what I'm concerned about.
    I'm thinking over that Nietzsche's ideas on destruction of Christian morality and the status of humans and underhumans, and Marx's idea of whole class-wide revolution influenced the two 20th C. evils. And that this influence, moreso than weapon technology, is what formed their evil actions. Thus the Christian powers of Medieval times would not have been in favor of such grand scale killing. Of course one could challenge me with the Allied bombing campaigns killing civilians, but I think the reasons behind the Evils and the Allies (excluding USSR, if you count that as part of the Allies) killing innocents are fundamentally and irreconcilably different, plus the scale killing is totally imbalanced.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

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