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  1. #111
    Senior Member kevrawlings's Avatar
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    Ok, ok, saying your assertion was laughable was condescending and it was a dick move, but really, read back a few posts. The comparison of Christianity to Greek mythology has already been addressed.

    You speak of the suspension of disbelief being necessary to enjoy a movie or a poem, but impertinent to life. I think you should remember that art imitates life, don't get your cart before the horse on that one.

  2. #112
    Senior Member kevrawlings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robopop View Post
    I do agree that nature appears to have a design, where the difference is whether the design is a result of natural processes, God/higher being, or something unknown altogether.

    My view is that life is the result of natural processes.
    The design of the universe, I really can't anwser.
    Yes, but aren't these processes a design in themselves? Like a well crafted program? And I don't know for sure either, but like Morpheus said in the Matrix, there's a difference between knowing and believing. That's my stance, at least.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevrawlings View Post
    you should remember that art imitates life
    As an Articled Clerk in a Sydney law office part of my job was to deliver Summons to gangsters in Kings Cross.

    So there I was, very young, in an impeccable suit with a Summons in my hand, being ushered into the establishment of a local gangster, usually an illegal gambling den or a sleazy nightclub.

    But what struck me was that the gangsters and their molls dressed and behaved like gangsters in the movies.

    It was clearly a case of life imitating art.

    But the gangsters always treated me very well and their molls flirted with me. It was like being in a slightly scary but delightful gangster movie. But it was real life imitating art.
    Last edited by Mole; 06-20-2010 at 12:00 AM.

  4. #114
    Senior Member kevrawlings's Avatar
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    Yeah, life sometimes does imitate art, but art always imitates life. Art is, by definition, the human effort to imitate, alter, supplement, or counteract the work of nature. I'm a middle school art teacher and when I tell my kids that, their eyes glaze over and they respond with something along the lines of "who farted", or "that's what she said" followed by roaring laughter.

    Edit: I should be fair, the kids aren't really that mindless. They're actually very creative and clever - artistic, even, because comedy is an art.

    "Art is unnecessary, like friendship, like philosophy, like the universe itself (for God did not need to create). It has no survival value, rather, it is one of the things that gives meaning to survival." - C.S. Lewis (again, sorry)

    My mother is a school administrator and she read me a suicide letter that someone had written once, it was a student. In the letter, he spoke of how he hated how everything was angular, scientific, and regimented. He mentioned how the corners of his desk were all right angles and everything was so painfully correct and in its proper place. His writing style was dispassionate. It was a pretty long letter, but that was his main concern, how damned structured and boring life at school was. If only he had exposed himself to more art - in the broadest sense: music, dance, the culinary arts, painting, martial arts - he may have never written the letter, and subsequently killed himself.

    Maybe that's why, as an administrator and a former Latin teacher (who I can guess understands the nature of tightening the screws too much), my mother puts so much emphasis on the arts in her school.

    I always think it's funny when people try to act like gangsters. haha Probably because when life imitates art, it's always seen as being fake - something is amiss.

  5. #115
    Senior Member Daedalus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    That is true, but you still cannot deny the stark contrasts between Medieval and modern thinking.
    I doubt there was any real difference. There are good examples of wanton slaughter during the middle ages, especially during the "religious wars" on unbelievers. One can read the accounts of some Arabic chroniclers themselves,(who traveled along with the armies of Islamic expansion into Asia) who write about entire towns put to the sword.

    Furthermore, the same can be said of the crusaders as well

    Eg:
    the Cathar Crusade
    According to the Cistercian writer Caesar of Heisterbach, one of the leaders of the Crusader army, the Papal legate Arnaud-Amaury, when asked by a Crusader how to distinguish the Cathars from the Catholics, answered:

    "Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius" – "Kill them [all]! Surely the Lord discerns which [ones] are his".
    On the other hand, the legate's own statement, in a letter to the Pope in August 1209 (col.139), states:

    "while discussions were still going on with the barons about the release of those in the city who were deemed to be Catholics, the servants and other persons of low degree and unarmed attacked the city without waiting for orders from their leaders. To our amazement, crying "to arms, to arms!", within the space of two or three hours they crossed the ditches and the walls and Béziers was taken. Our men spared no one, irrespective of rank, sex or age, and put to the sword almost 20,000 people. After this great slaughter the whole city was despoiled and burnt, as Divine vengeance miraculously..."


    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    To claim is to try to sophistically negate the role that anti-religious propaganda had in Communist regimes. It's not that hard to find examples of such.

    Not really, Atheists have nothing in common the way religious people do. To say that Atheists are similar in their thinking is like saying not collecting stamps is a hobby. The only similarity atheists have, is that they don't believe in anything. Anything else is purely coincidental. In the case of religions, the opposite is true.



    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    It's not just about the weapons available, but about the thinking of the times. Changes in methods of production, total warfare, and ideas like ethnic cleansing are later developments that change the scope of war. These developments make the grand slaughter possible, but putting into practice is the action of the person.

    And with the communist repression of religion, it's not a gigantic step to say there was a Soviet war against religion. And don't forget it was the likes of Nietzsche and Marx that later inspired liberating forces of Nazis and Soviets--history's two biggest monsters.

    I'm not defending the Communists here, but if i had a worldview/government that was vehemently opposed by others for the simple fact that mine did not conform with that of my neighbors (the so called non-religious government of communism vis-a-vis the Christianity-influenced governments/worldviews of the European nations) i would surely take a negative view of those who espouse the beliefs of the nations calling for my doom.

    its no secret that the church and most of the religious institutions were opposed to the socialist governments from the get go, for no other reason than that the socialist governments were not religious. And one also has to look at the historical background of the Russian revolution, a revolution that was mostly brought about by the callous way the Czars treated the peasants, Czars with whom the church of Russia was closely associated with. So most of the Russian disregard for religion would have been caused by this fact as well, and not just by the words of Marx and his like.


    [QUOTE=Robopop;1199159]There is no universal faith or beliefs atheist really share in common. [QUOTE]

    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robopop View Post
    Atheism is a negative position, it is a lack of belief and depending on the definition does not assert a position. The only thing atheist have in common is that they lack a belief in a supreme being. This is atheism in it's most general definition.
    Atheism is not a negative position. It might seem negative to those who are believers, while theism might seem negative to those who are unbelievers. its all in the eye of the beholder.

    As i said earlier Atheism is a religion if not collecting stamps is a hobby
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  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
    Atheism is a religion if not collecting stamps is a hobby
    At last, finally I have an answer to the question, "Do you have a hobby?".

    And now I can answer confidently and clearly, "Yes, I don't collect stamps".

  7. #117
    Senior Member kevrawlings's Avatar
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    Daedalus, the crusades were a terrible thing and went against scripture. People have murdered so many more people in the name of rationalism than in the name of God.

    Hitler and the idea of ethnic cleansing, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot. All of the greatest murderers of the last century were all confirmed atheists.

    Take away the concept of God and you're still going to be stuck with the same wretched, conceited, prideful, hateful lot of people that you had before. I can guarantee you it won't be some utopian society of enlightenment. I mean, really, think about it. Why would people change? People are violent and inhumane regardless of God.

    Islam is much different from Christianity. The sixth pillar is clear about the killing of infidels.

    Fact is, much of the Qu'ran is taken straight from Christian text and Mohammed was a military/political leader. He studied Christianity in depth before he had his "supposed" revelation of the angel Gabriel on Mount Sinai. He used his knowledge of Christianity and perverted it for his own personal glory and power.

  8. #118
    Senior Member Daedalus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevrawlings View Post
    Daedalus, the crusades were a terrible thing and went against scripture. People have murdered so many more people in the name of rationalism than in the name of God.

    Hitler and the idea of ethnic cleansing, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot. All of the greatest murderers of the last century were all confirmed atheists.

    Take away the concept of God and you're still going to be stuck with the same wretched, conceited, prideful, hateful lot of people that you had before. I can guarantee you it won't be some utopian society of enlightenment. I mean, really, think about it. Why would people change? People are violent and inhumane regardless of God.

    Islam is much different from Christianity. The sixth pillar is clear about the killing of infidels.

    Fact is, much of the Qu'ran is taken straight from Christian text and Mohammed was a military/political leader. He studied Christianity in depth before he had his "supposed" revelation of the angel Gabriel on Mount Sinai. He used his knowledge of Christianity and perverted it for his own personal glory and power.
    Contrary to popular belief, Nazis and Hitler were not Atheists, they were religious and were not above claiming "God is with us"

    Also Mao and Stalin did not kill anyone in the name of Atheism as Atheism is non-belief..one cannot champion non-belief any more so than one can champion not collecting stamps.

    Check my posts on page 2 and 3. These has been discussed in detail

    btw. the previous post of mine was a reply to posts on page 3




    EDIT:

    people tend to forget that 20 000 killed during the middle ages is like killing nearly 300 000 today. if one adjusts for population %

    therefore even 10 000 killed during the middle ages (as there were quite a lot of such events) equals a slaughter bigger than that of Hiroshima! in today's terms

    unless people take into account the different population numbers now and then, and weight the numbers accordingly, the details will be glaringly different!


    compare the world population in the middle ages and before, with that of the one today




    it is not a stretch to say, that population adjusted, more people were slaughtered during the middle ages than during world war 1 or 2
    Extraverted - 25 Introverted - 75
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  9. #119
    Senior Member kevrawlings's Avatar
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    I never said they killed in the name of atheism. I said they were atheists and killed in the name of rationalism.

    Hitler quotes:

    Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

    National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

    10th October, 1941, midday:

    Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

    14th October, 1941, midday:

    The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

    19th October, 1941, night:

    The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

    21st October, 1941, midday:

    Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

    13th December, 1941, midnight:

    Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)

    14th December, 1941, midday:

    Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

    9th April, 1942, dinner:

    There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

    27th February, 1942, midday:

    It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)

    --------------------------------------------

    These quotes are from the "Bormann-Vermerke" or Borrman endorsements. They are a collection of hand written notes made by Martin Bormann who was Hitler's personal secretary during the war. Bormann is known to have been an extraordinarily powerful figure in Nazi Germany and a notorious opponent of Christianity.

    There is no real dispute regarding the authenticity of these notes. They are what Borrman wrote. They are published in the original German in Adolf Hitler, Monologe im Führerhauptquartier 1941-1944. published by Orbis Verlag, Hamburg, Approved Special Edition in 2000.

    Publicly, Hitler professed to being Christian, because he knew that 90% of Germans were Christians and he had to win them over.

  10. #120
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
    I doubt there was any real difference.
    If you claim that, then you clearly don't understand much about the differences between Medieval and modern thinking, and how this reflects the differences between Medieval and modern warfare.

    And to think you tried to claim I didn't know anything about history. :rolli:



    Not really, Atheists have nothing in common the way religious people do. To say that Atheists are similar in their thinking is like saying not collecting stamps is a hobby. The only similarity atheists have, is that they don't believe in anything. Anything else is purely coincidental. In the case of religions, the opposite is true.
    Fuh fuh fuh.

    And one also has to look at the historical background of the Russian revolution, a revolution that was mostly brought about by the callous way the Czars treated the peasants, Czars with whom the church of Russia was closely associated with.
    Hmmn the Church actually held considerable power to check the Czars at times, that is untill Peter the Great decided to bring the church more directly under his rule - as part of his Westernizing reforms, under the concept of the predominance of the secular state over anyother authority, including religious. Same thing happened in France before the Revolution. And just like in the French Revolution, after the monarchy fell and the revolutionaries started assaulting the church as well, people began to flock to their defense. This happened particularly among western Ukrainians. As one dissident put it, when commenting on Soviet assaults upon the Uniate church(the native Ukrainian Catholic Church): "only a swindler calls a nation's spiritual heritage 'opium of the masses.'"

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