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  1. #21
    Senior Member wedekit's Avatar
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    Well, I agree with Aristotle's philosophy.

    If you are talking about a life of pleasure strictly received via the senses, I would have to disagree.

    A life of pure sensual pleasure is an empty happiness because you are ignoring the thing that separates us from other animals: the rational mind. Animals live strictly for the moment, but humans live outside of the moment since we can look to the past and future and have a concept of it. Once you lose your sources of sensual pleasure you will lose your happiness, because sensual pleasure is only gratifying for that moment. Eating an absolutely delicious piece of cake will make you happy that day, but a year later you probably won't even remember eating it.

    If you spend your life achieving personal excellence, contemplation, and friendship, then nothing can ever take that happiness and pleasure away from you. The pleasure and happiness you receive from it will forever be embedded in your soul. That in itself is a pleasure worth pursuing.

    Of course this isn't saying that sensual pleasure is bad in any way. Eating a good piece of cake is great... in moderation. Indulging (gluttony) in it is a different story.
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  2. #22
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wedekit View Post
    Well, I agree with Aristotle's philosophy.

    If you are talking about a life of pleasure strictly received via the senses, I would have to disagree.

    A life of pure sensual pleasure is an empty happiness because you are ignoring the thing that separates us from other animals: the rational mind. Animals live strictly for the moment, but humans live outside of the moment since we can look to the past and future and have a concept of it. Once you lose your sources of sensual pleasure you will lose your happiness, because sensual pleasure is only gratifying for that moment. Eating an absolutely delicious piece of cake will make you happy that day, but a year later you probably won't even remember eating it.

    If you spend your life achieving personal excellence, contemplation, and friendship, then nothing can ever take that happiness and pleasure away from you. The pleasure and happiness you receive from it will forever be embedded in your soul. That in itself is a pleasure worth pursuing.

    Of course this isn't saying that sensual pleasure is bad in any way. Eating a good piece of cake is great... in moderation. Indulging (gluttony) in it is a different story.
    I don't believe that there is a meaningful distinction between man and other animals.

    It's worth noting that studies show depression and hedonism are like two peas in a pot. Sensual pleasure does not bring happiness, apparently, though I frankly think this is obvious.
    Reports show that people are most happy when they do work that they are proud of, when they are in a relationship, and when they are religious, among some other things.
    The recurring theme as far as I can see is that happiness comes from self-worth. If you think you have a purpose and a value, then you are happy.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member wedekit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I don't believe that there is a meaningful distinction between man and other animals.

    It's worth noting that studies show depression and hedonism are like two peas in a pot. Sensual pleasure does not bring happiness, apparently, though I frankly think this is obvious.
    Reports show that people are most happy when they do work that they are proud of, when they are in a relationship, and when they are religious, among some other things.
    The recurring theme as far as I can see is that happiness comes from self-worth. If you think you have a purpose and a value, then you are happy.
    It's always peculiar to me how NT's are the ones who value logical approaches and intellect above all, yet deny that this in itself is what separates us from other animals.
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  4. #24
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wedekit View Post
    It's always peculiar to me how NT's are the ones who value logical approaches and intellect above all, yet deny that this in itself is what separates us from other animals.
    There is no contradiction in that.

    I do value logic very highly, I just think humanity's level of logic is over-estimated, and that of other animals is under-estimated.
    It is also my logic that concludes that it is implausible for humans to have developed reasoning like some kind of promethean fire.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member wedekit's Avatar
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    Try thinking outside of the box then. To think the atom is as small as it gets would be naive. To think the universe is as big as it gets would also be naive. If our logic is over-estimated, than that makes room for something higher than us that we can't have a concept of because of our limited logic.

    I don't mean offense by bringing up that you are INTP, but through experience I know that your mind is made up and there is no use trying... and that's why we broke up with each other.
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  6. #26
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wedekit View Post
    Try thinking outside of the box then.
    I always do.

    Quote Originally Posted by wedekit View Post
    To think the atom is as small as it gets would be naive.
    Of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by wedekit View Post
    To think the universe is as big as it gets would also be naive.
    Of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by wedekit View Post
    If our logic is over-estimated, than that makes room for something higher than us that we can't have a concept of because of our limited logic.
    Yes... of.. course... What does this have to do with me?

    Quote Originally Posted by wedekit View Post
    I don't mean offense by bringing up that you are INTP, but through experience I know that your mind is made up and there is no use trying... and that's why we broke up with each other.
    Oh, I see. It doesn't.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by wedekit View Post
    Well, I agree with Aristotle's philosophy.

    If you are talking about a life of pleasure strictly received via the senses, I would have to disagree.

    A life of pure sensual pleasure is an empty happiness because you are ignoring the thing that separates us from other animals: the rational mind. Animals live strictly for the moment, but humans live outside of the moment since we can look to the past and future and have a concept of it.
    Animals seem pretty happy to me, and what's so great about being human? We get to be aware of our own mortality! Yippee skippee!
    Once you lose your sources of sensual pleasure you will lose your happiness, because sensual pleasure is only gratifying for that moment.

    Eating an absolutely delicious piece of cake will make you happy that day, but a year later you probably won't even remember eating it.
    I remember eating some damn tasty things in my time.
    If you spend your life achieving personal excellence,

    contemplation,

    and friendship,

    then nothing can ever take that happiness and pleasure away from you. The pleasure and happiness you receive from it will forever be embedded in your soul. That in itself is a pleasure worth pursuing.
    Soul? Shit, I sold mine already. Ah well, none of those things make me happy anyway.
    Of course this isn't saying that sensual pleasure is bad in any way. Eating a good piece of cake is great... in moderation.
    All things in moderation including moderation.
    Indulging (gluttony) in it is a different story.
    "Indulgence, not compulsion" as the Good Book says.

  8. #28
    it's a nuclear device antireconciler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    I pursue pleasure all the time.. but I know when to stop, because then the pain will be greater.

    So my answer is no.
    Agreed, and good point. We are reluctant to say that the human Good is identically pleasure ... but talking about pleasure leads us naturally to talk about what is good and subsumes everything thrown at it, no matter how objective and impersonal it seems. I challenge anyone to show me something we pursue without pleasure. We might think we do things all the time without pleasure, but if we did not derive pleasure from them, what could motivate us? Any answer to this question will lack sufficient depth, for we will see that it is pursuing that named motive brings us pleasure, and thus everything under it indirectly. Name it, and my reply will be "And why?"

    NEVER take yourself out of the equation, for if one thing is sure, it is that you exist, and to say that you is exist is to also say that you DESIRE, for the opposite of this is death.

    The distinction between pleasure and the Good is a distinction which turns out to be none at all. The intuition that governs our generation of such a conceptual distinction is exactly the one that leads us to believe in a distinction (which does not recollapse) between observer and observed, world and representation, etc. It is the intuition governing the whole series of distinctions we should examine rather than its particular moments in isolation (such as this issue), which will only lead us around in circles and to skepicism.
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  9. #29
    Enigma Nadir's Avatar
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    I am thinking that pleasure is a short-term and happiness is a long-term representation of the same thing - contentment. Pleasure can be more intense, I think - whereas in the case of happiness you "just add water" - time.
    If the pleasurable activity leads to happiness in some way, yes. It means you take the extra step. I like tea.
    If the pleasurable activity leads to pleasure, its natural result, but not happiness, then I think it's questionable. Too much sugar can be hazardous.

    What kind of activity brings pleasure but not happiness? Can happiness be brought on without help from pleasure, does happiness contain pleasure in itself? Subjective questions, one knows oneself best. :)
    Not really.

  10. #30
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antireconciler View Post
    Agreed, and good point. We are reluctant to say that the human Good is identically pleasure ... but talking about pleasure leads us naturally to talk about what is good and subsumes everything thrown at it, no matter how objective and impersonal it seems. I challenge anyone to show me something we pursue without pleasure. We might think we do things all the time without pleasure, but if we did not derive pleasure from them, what could motivate us? Any answer to this question will lack sufficient depth, for we will see that it is pursuing that named motive brings us pleasure, and thus everything under it indirectly. Name it, and my reply will be "And why?"
    So in a sense, no action is taken without pleasure being involved. Interesting. Although I do think people should consider the consequences of their actions, I guess that's like saying that short-term tedium that leads to long-term, mutual pleasure is good, and that short-term, selfish pleasure that leads to negative consequences is bad. In one form I would caution moderation, and in the other I would say do as much as you can.

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