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  1. #51
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    The Cake is a lie.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    I challenged this; I went to the root of each act. I stated that the "selfless" are not selfless, and that selfishness creates "selflessness". I think it is not so detached, but more realistic and tangible than the idea of "the most". The root defines the rest, as it is the base of the structure and this is where I aimed. The way I perceive that people perceive the thing is illusory and basic.
    Ahh but one problem still remains... why do something selfless for an internal reward when other acts could produce the same if not greater internal reward? If it's all about reward, well our bodies are efficient... so why don't we see people spending their free time doing the same acts over and over (those which are most highly rewarding) and spending their days trying to work towards getting whatever they need to do those acts...

    No matter how much you try to generalize this you will always come back to the fact that not all people find selfless acts rewarding, why? Scientifically speaking this would have to be explained before you could make any correlations between internal desire/reward and motive. We are not all motivated by the same things and we do not all have the same internal desires, so what is the source of the difference? That is the real question...

    edit: you might find this article interesting Biological Altruism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

  3. #53
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    ^ That's a good point. I was going to mention if we consider someone who rationalizes that they need to receive death or pain to keep others safe would not be selfish because they are not getting anything from it - like Leonidas in 300, fictionally. But your example is better.

    Of course, if it is argued that there is still a hint of Fi, Ti, Te, or Fe leading them on and we call that a 'desire', then essentially anything a mind that is aware of itself would do is considered selfish, which doesn't make much sense to me, when we are still acting out the results of our mental functions, much the same as a machine that is argued not to be aware of itself acts out its functions. I would say conscious awareness is an illusion before I say everything a consciously aware being does is selfish, since it precedes the idea of selfish. But now we get into religion and philosophy to answer the question and we are going to have differing unfalsifiable viewpoints, if you understand where I'm coming from.

    Well, okay...

  4. #54
    Reptilian Snuggletron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Christ! Where's my rifle?!!
    I've never read her books because I don't really have enough interest to, but why does the majority of the population seem to strongly dislike Ayn Rand?

  5. #55
    morose bourgeoisie
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    What's the point of this thread?

    If all action is selfish, then why does anyone try to be inclusive or altruistic at all? If ultimately the only 'gain' is more dopamine (or some other neurotransmitter), why does anyone ponder Gandhi or MLK, or anyone, when the same could be derived from a drug or some other, less difficult action? Why do artists produce, and why does anyone else care about their art?
    (I think there may be more going on than can be encapsulated in a 'selfish vs. unselfish' dichotomy.)

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by spin-1/2-nuclei View Post
    edit: you might find this article interesting Biological Altruism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
    Yeah I wrote a paper about this last year. Thanks for the link.

  7. #57
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spin-1/2-nuclei View Post
    Ahh but one problem still remains... why do something selfless for an internal reward when other acts could produce the same if not greater internal reward?
    Uh, it's not selfless if it's done for an internal reward.

    If it's all about reward, well our bodies are efficient... so why don't we see people spending their free time doing the same acts over and over (those which are most highly rewarding)
    We do see people spending their free time pleasurably, everyday. People consume products, purchase various items of merchandise, go on vacations, have sex, etc..

    Things that are undesirable, and sometimes things less desirable under the correct circumstances, are scorned upon, and generally are left alone unless they become necessary.

    and spending their days trying to work towards getting whatever they need to do those acts...
    The only reason I go to work everyday is because it provides a method towards long-term pleasure. I work for money, obtain that money and then purchase rewarding things.

    I scorn work, but it is necessary to continue living and to live comfortably, and living is desrable.

    No matter how much you try to generalize this you will always come back to the fact that not all people find selfless acts rewarding, why?
    I would think it would be because the actions themselves are not desirable or rewarding for that particular enactor. People are different, thus their personalities and preferences are not shared entirely.

    Scientifically speaking this would have to be explained before you could make any correlations between internal desire/reward and motive. We are not all motivated by the same things and we do not all have the same internal desires, so what is the source of the difference? That is the real question...
    The source is the difference of preference.

    edit: you might find this article interesting Biological Altruism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
    Ah! That was am interesting read!
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  8. #58
    figsfiggyfigs
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    What about taking a bullet for a loved one?.....
    I've always viewed that as a rather selfless act. Loving someone so much, you are willing to give up your life to ensure theirs remains intact.

    Is it then selfish to want them to survive?

    if you die, would it still be selfish? if you are no longer an element in this person's life.

    EDIT: to be fair, I haven't read past the first post.

  9. #59
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    ^ That's a good point. I was going to mention if we consider someone who rationalizes that they need to receive death or pain to keep others safe would not be selfish because they are not getting anything from it - like Leonidas in 300, fictionally. But your example is better.
    I would wonder, if a person had the capacity and ability to save people, an extreme internal desire to do good and to be righteous, coupled by a heavy sense of what is wrong or right, would do if he saw someone suffering and knew he had to offer his life for their protection - I think he would desire to rescue those people in the name of his faiths. I also wonder how he could live with himself if he did not follow his creed.

    I've never seen 300 but from what I understand, Leonidas seemed like a man with a passionate perception of duty - both to self and country. Haven't watched the movie though.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  10. #60
    Ginkgo
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    In Soviet Nature, you don't create altruism, altruism creates YOU!

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