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  1. #31
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Thank you, sir. This thread is a product of Fi being an intrinsic motivator that can weigh values. In this context, we are weighing the values of altruism and selfishness in a way that is detached from a normal definition.

    Once Ayn Rand changed her subjective value of altruism, she felt free to cultivate her own ethical system which she felt was more beneficial. However, it was mostly just beneficial to her and other like-minded people. Note that Rand was an INTJ.

    People of other orientations will probably find that this philosophy does not resonate with them because their brand of altruism doesn't stem from the same individualistic source. Still, there will be like-minded people, like myself, who understand that these kinds of philosophies cannot be applied to all people, and so I take them with a grain of salt.
    I'm not trying to create a philosphy for everyone. This is for my own personal entertainment and thought. I've posted it here because I want it challenged.

    Please explain how my approach is detached.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  2. #32
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post

    Please explain how my approach is detached.
    Well, most people view selfish acts as things that are primarily concerned with oneself; while selflessness are primarily concerned with others. Basically, you have stated that as long as there are two parties involved, there can never really be an unadulterated version of either. Even being a martyr for others would be somewhat selfish because you would be involved in the act, but depending on the context, it can also be mostly selfless. The only way to nullify these definitions would be to be the last person living on earth, because then you would become everyone.

  3. #33
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Well, most people view selfish acts as things that are primarily concerned with oneself; while selflessness are primarily concerned with others.
    I challenged this; I went to the root of each act. I stated that the "selfless" are not selfless, and that selfishness creates "selflessness". I think it is not so detached, but more realistic and tangible than the idea of "the most". The root defines the rest, as it is the base of the structure and this is where I aimed. The way I perceive that people perceive the thing is illusory and basic.

    Basically, you have stated that as long as there are two parties involved, there can never really be an unadulterated version of either. Even being a martyr for others would be somewhat selfish because you would be involved in the act
    Yep.

    but depending on the context, it can also be mostly selfless.
    How is that? Perhaps you are basing this off the chemical bit? That seems to me, what you're doing. That was a secondary approach to the selflessness concept, that was designed to combat the nobility of the actions themselves. The primary argument was the desire to act.

    I see that the secondary needs refinement.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  4. #34
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    I wholeheartedly agree with the Op, and I found no exceptions to your rule.
    This is something I've been wondering about lately, and came to the same conclusion.

  5. #35
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    I challenged this; I went to the root of each act. I stated that the "selfless" are not selfless, and that selfishness creates "selflessness". I think it is not so detached, but more realistic and tangible than the idea of "the most". The root defines the rest, as it is the base of the structure and this is where I aimed. The way I perceive that people perceive the thing is illusory and basic.
    Definitely. Your observations are correct, however, these phrases are used for the sake of easy understanding. They are illusory and basic, just like most language. Like, if I say "pig", you may think of a fat, pink animal in a barn yard, but I'm thinking of a brown fuzzy razorback. We use the phrase "pig" for the sake of basic understanding, and then through more communication about the object, our understanding becomes less basic and more complex. Sometimes being brief, but vague, has more utility than being long-winded, but precise. This is why we created words for people who appeared to be more self-servile vs. altruistic.

    However, you're talking about the utility of being "selfless" vs. "selfish". They can be interchangeable for some in a practical sense? Yes. Sometimes a "Do it yourself" attitude works quite well. You can be focused on your own concerns, finances, work, play, while I am focuses on mine, and we become better suited in the long-hall - Stronger and more apt without using each other as a crutch. However, there are other times when making personal sacrifices for the needs of others produces a better outcome.

    Like, imagine if you and I went to a local McDonalds. I asked you to selflessly refill my drink, while you asked me to selflessly refill yours. It's a win-win, but we might be better off refilling our own respectively because we mitigate the hassle. But, let's say that we refill each other's and we do a better job because we somehow know what's best for each other. Maybe I got you decaf because you would turn into a crazed maniac if you had too much caffeine, and maybe you got me unsweetened because I was turning into an obese glutton. If we hadn't helped each other, then perhaps we would have made poorer decisions for ourselves. This happens every day in the real world. However, it is also quite possible to make poor decisions for others.



    How is that? Perhaps you are basing this off the chemical bit? That seems to me, what you're doing. That was a secondary approach to the selflessness concept, that was designed to combat the nobility of the actions themselves. The primary argument was the desire to act.
    Yeah, but I'm talking about the desired outcome. Like, let's say I'm in the secret service and I "selflessly" throw myself infront of the president when he's being sniped at. I die, but then he lives and starts a nuclear holocaust. I just acted with altruistic desire, but the outcome was far from beneficial.

    Which one is more important, the desire or the outcome?

  6. #36
    Ginkgo
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    ps - nothing's wrong with your argument. I'm just kind of on a tangent.

  7. #37
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Definitely. Your observations are correct, however, these phrases are used for the sake of easy understanding. They are illusory and basic, just like most language. Like, if I say "pig", you may think of a fat, pink animal in a barn yard, but I'm thinking of a brown fuzzy razorback. We use the phrase "pig" for the sake of basic understanding, and then through more communication about the object, our understanding becomes less basic and more complex. Sometimes being brief, but vague, has more utility than being long-winded, but precise. This is why we created words for people who appeared to be more self-servile vs. altruistic.
    So, I am detached because I am not basic? I'll take it! Har, Har, Har! The concept is still understandable once we remove the illusory and basic; once we replace the pink pig with the brown. I think most people can be brought over to the brown with relative ease, as the brown/root is what truly matters.

    Maybe it is they who are detached?

    However, you're talking about the utility of being "selfless" vs. "selfish". They can be interchangeable for some in a practical sense? Yes.
    Uh, no... I was just questioning the concept itself, not the utility of selfishness and selflessness. I haven't even thought about that, honestly.

    Sometimes a "Do it yourself" attitude works quite well. You can be focused on your own concerns, finances, work, play, while I am focuses on mine, and we become better suited in the long-hall - Stronger and more apt without using each other as a crutch. However, there are other times when making personal sacrifices for the needs of others produces a better outcome.

    Like, imagine if you and I went to a local McDonalds. I asked you to selflessly refill my drink, while you asked me to selflessly refill yours. It's a win-win, but we might be better off refilling our own respectively because we mitigate the hassle. But, let's say that we refill each other's and we do a better job because we somehow know what's best for each other. Maybe I got you decaf because you would turn into a crazed maniac if you had too much caffeine, and maybe you got me unsweetened because I was turning into an obese glutton. If we hadn't helped each other, then perhaps we would have made poorer decisions for ourselves. This happens every day in the real world. However, it is also quite possible to make poor decisions for others.
    It seems like you've taken this elsewhere.


    Yeah, but I'm talking about the desired outcome. Like, let's say I'm in the secret service and I "selflessly" throw myself infront of the president when he's being sniped at. I die, but then he lives and starts a nuclear holocaust. I just acted with altruistic desire, but the outcome was far from beneficial.

    Which one is more important, the desire or the outcome?
    Yep.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  8. #38
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    ps - nothing's wrong with your argument. I'm just kind of on a tangent.
    Lol. I was confused for a few.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  9. #39
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    Lol. I was confused for a few.

  10. #40
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post

    Maybe it is they who are detached?


    Is the head detached from the body, or is the body detached from the head?

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