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View Poll Results: Love is a universal truth?

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  • ST---yes

    1 4.00%
  • ST---no

    1 4.00%
  • SF---yes

    2 8.00%
  • SF---no

    0 0%
  • NT---yes

    3 12.00%
  • NT---no

    10 40.00%
  • NF---yes

    2 8.00%
  • NF---no

    6 24.00%
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  1. #71
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yvonne View Post
    yes... but the dualism in our world is evident. it's only a matter of dealing with it.

    no worries.
    I find it hard to remove all notions of dualism from my mind, so I am going to say that, in some cases, it's probable, perhaps even true that dualisms exist. I would have to think about it longer before I came to a real decision.

    Some examples of dualisms that exist in my mind: Infinity vs Zero, matter vs antimatter, etc..

    I still don't think love and hate are dualisms though. Also, I wonder, how can you 'deal' with a dualism? Do you mean 'get over it' or 'control it'?
    Last edited by Arthur Schopenhauer; 05-07-2010 at 09:29 AM. Reason: There was an error.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  2. #72
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    Also, I wonder, how can you 'deal' with a dualism? Do you mean 'get over it' or 'control it'?
    now we're getting into the core of Fi. for me it's about accepting it and then controlling it... defining/ redefining your values... and trying to practice what you preach.
    Enneagram 5w4.

  3. #73
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    For me, it appears one of my Fi values is universal love for all creatures. This isnt romantic love, more the jesus/buddha variety. Everything deserves compassion, love and forgiveness, even if it comes in a tough love package.


    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I am going to play devils advocate here - so you love murderers, and thieves, and (heaven forbid) if someone stole a child ... would you be able to uphold that principle? Still love them? Think carefully; I am not trying to be a bi*ch here, I am just throwing out some stuff that is not so straightforward and easily forgotten by the churchy arm-wavers who talk about loving everyone and promptly start to gossip about them after they leave the building. (Not you specifically of course; just generalizing an attitude.)

    When everyone wants to focus on joy & happy ... love can be the precursor of dark acts, and is twisted to justify heinous cruelty.

    It's just not so simple, to me. Love is a choice, and no simple one at that.
    I need to go back and read the whole thread as it is very enlightening but wanted to reply to the above.

    The answer is yes, anyone and anything will receive love and forgiveness. The reason is that I can almost always Ne-see how this person ended up so fucked up and nightmarish. I recognize the role that biology or society played in forming them into what they are. I can then identify ways to prevent others from ending up in their state. No little kid plans to grow up a murder someone. Yet humans kill each other-why?

    That resolves the Fi side of the question-but I think as an enfp-there is always the second part-the Te side. "You are loved and forgiven-now what are we going to do about the situation to fix the problem so it does not repeat again" Fi then Te. It is a cycle.

    In the case of the above it may mean these people are locked away and never allowed out to interact with others again. Logic dictates they cannot be trusted, but it is wasteful and even a negative use of energy to hate them. Instead understand them-how did they end up this way-then develop intervention plans out in the world to try and prevent others from reaching this point.

    But yeah, this may be way ENFP logic, so I would never expect anyone else to abide by the above and would understand why they may hate and not forgive.

    (If you want to make it really tough though-what if they stole my child? Yeah, then all those Fi values start to get all screwed up. I would kill them most likely.)

  4. #74
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ‘When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched
    to everything else in the universe. The sun shines not on us, but
    in us; the rivers flow not past, but through us ...’’ John Muir

    ---

    The Ts'an-t'ung-ch'i
    ~an expression of absolute and relative in the Ch’an (Zen)
    Shih-t'ou

    參同契
    Harmony of Difference and Sameness

    竺土大仙心 The mind of the great sage of India
    東西密相付 is intimately transmitted from west to east.
    人根有利鈍 While human faculties are sharp or dull,
    道無南北祖 the Way has no northern or southern ancestors.
    靈源明皎潔 The spiritual source shines clear in the light;
    枝派暗流注 the branching streams flow on in the dark.
    執事元是迷 Grasping at things is surely delusion;
    契理亦非悟 according with sameness is still not enlightenment.
    門門一切境 All the objects of the senses
    迴互不迴互 interact and yet do not.
    迴而更相涉 Interacting brings involvement.
    不爾依位住 Otherwise, each keeps its place.
    色本殊質像 Sights vary in quality and form,
    聲元異樂苦 sounds differ as pleasing or harsh.
    闇合上中言 Refined and common speech come together in the dark,
    明明清濁句 clear and murky phrases are distinguished in the light.
    四大性自復 The four elements return to their natures
    如子得其母 just as a child turns to its mother;
    火熱風動搖 Fire heats, wind moves,
    水濕地堅固 water wets, earth is solid.
    眼色耳音聲 Eye and sights, ear and sounds,
    鼻香舌鹹醋 nose and smells, tongue and tastes;
    然於一一法 Thus with each and every thing,
    依根葉分布 depending on these roots, the leaves spread forth.
    本未須歸宗 Trunk and branches share the essence;
    尊卑用其語 revered and common, each has its speech.
    當明中有暗 In the light there is darkness,
    勿以暗相遇 but don't take it as darkness;
    當暗中有明 In the dark there is light,
    勿以明相睹 but don't see it as light.
    明暗各相對 Light and dark oppose one another
    比如前後歩 like the front and back foot in walking.
    萬物自有功 Each of the myriad things has its merit,
    當言用及處 expressed according to function and place.
    事存函蓋合 Phenomena exist; box and lid fit;
    理應箭鋒拄 principle responds; arrow points meet.
    承言須會宗 Hearing the words, understand the meaning;
    勿自立規矩 don't set up standards of your own.
    觸目不會道 If you don't understand the Way right before you,
    運足焉知路 how will you know the path as you walk?
    進歩非近遠 Progress is not a matter of far or near,
    迷隔山河故 but if you are confused, mountains and rivers block your way.
    謹白參玄人 I respectfully urge you who study the mystery,
    光陰莫虚度 do not pass your days and nights in vain.

    ---



    Also, the Taoist symbol of Yin-Yang describes the absolute yet relative nature of existence; the light and dark blend together and contain aspects of the other. The struggle to find balance, and out of this love arises.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #75
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    This, to me, reflects the concept of giving what you receive, and expecting to receive what you give. That's not really what love religion says, or mainstream religions, or even unconditional loving, or a relationship coach would say. They would say to give your love freely and don't worry about what comes back. Give what you can, when you can, fully. But yes, I think to survive for many in this world this does not work, because those who have more to give (myself) end up deficient with no easy way to fill back up; which weakens us over time. So a more pragmatic approach to love is obviously definitely needed in our culture. We seem to only see the takers; the selfish, and indeed, I think the selfish outweigh the giving by many. So it is incumbent on the givers to protect themselves in some way. The current love lingo thrown around just doesn't work or do anyone any real good.
    There is something Fe-ish going in here. I cant quite tease out what, but reciprocality... I dunno...

    Quote Originally Posted by Xellotath View Post
    As for compassion, just because I feel a certain way about a person or an animal does not mean that everyone else -should- feel that way and cherish those feelings. There are no virtues in emotional dictatorships. I dislike seeing animals in pain, and in fact.. I'm a vegetarian, partly for that reason. But I can't demand anything of people, nor formulate ethics based on my sensitivities - I think that would be nearly solipsistic on my part. I get strong desires to nurture that which is vulnerable, in fact I would go as far as to say that I dont feel "love" unless there is vulnerability and sensibility involved. (might be some weird Fi thing or something with me) - a feeling which stands in very sharp contrast to all the rhetoric about "loving yourself" and the rest of the ego-driven nonsense. For me, love is raw felt-meaning, -against- what my ego might be telling me.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    I have wondered about this too. It's like a quick and natural way to incite a love response is to feel someone's need. I've wondered about that in the context of sexual loving relationships; that sometimes those that are needy are attracted to those that are giving, and vice versa; those that are giving are attracted to those that need. It's, of course, not a balanced relationship what could last very well, but why are some so attracted to that? It must be because that is a quick way to elicit a love response, which in turn, feels good.
    I recognize what Xello is saying. I think Fi at a very deep level may serve as a mirror of pain. I feel this very strongly in myself but I recall AA and PB both mentioning a physiological mirror response as well. For me to see another in pain, to feel their pain, evokes an almost instinctual need to help them emotionally-typically via Te tough love, not always a sweet kind response.

    Once I recall a post on another forum in which I man said he had scars all over his arms due to a suicide attempt in the past. He said he felt he didnt want his girlfriend to see the scars. There were several comments-one said let her see the scars so she can understand your past and the strength you have to move forwards. Someone else to explain the scars would be manipulation-making her feel pity.

    I found this second comment really odd. In my mind, if I see an imperfection in another, I recognize how it has challenged them, how they had fortitude to overcome that challenge and it does a few things at once. I can envision the pain they suffered and "feel" that pain-and simultaneously I admire them immensely for overcoming that pain and moving on with their lives in spite of the challenge they faced. The combination evokes strong emotions within me.

    So when I see someone in pain or hardship-I do feel a very strong need to help them-it evokes love-yet that love will not be kind-I will push them and give them tools to overcome the challenge in front of them. If they fail-it doesnt evoke my sympathy.

  6. #76
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    (If you want to make it really tough though-what if they stole my child? Yeah, then all those Fi values start to get all screwed up. I would kill them most likely.)
    Initially, I did have your child in there, but felt it too harsh so made it more generic.

    The answer is yes, anyone and anything will receive love and forgiveness.
    Could you forgive them? After all, from a distance one could forgive anything, almost, no? A kind of emotional rationalization?

    Does that have anything to even do with Fi?

    Remember though, I don't specifically disagree with you; I am throwing out some thought-challenges.

    These concepts we speak of are no new thoughts; there is much wisdom to be gained from study too.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #77
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    The struggle to find balance, and out of this love arises.
    yes, this is what i was getting at.

    and i try not to preach too much, just act/ not act...
    Enneagram 5w4.

  8. #78
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I'm just questioning the wisdom of centering all that we are around love.
    What if we center all we are around balance instead - what would that look like to you? (The balance point of love is not going around "hating" ... it would include self-love, recognition of darkness, acknowledgement even. That we love to get something, not just to give something.)

    that sometimes those that are needy are attracted to those that are giving, and vice versa; those that are giving are attracted to those that need. It's, of course, not a balanced relationship what could last very well, but why are some so attracted to that?
    That is a balance thing too ... an effort to balance ourselves and others. We are naturally attracted to what we need to find balance. And that type of relationship can last ... for a long time. As long as the giver and receiver meet in the middle to find that center point of Yin and Yang. There's then not so much giving, and not so much taking. The roles should meld into the other, into the duality of each quality.

    But if we think that in order to be good people we must love everyone ... give to everyone ... then we put ourselves out of balance and thus eventually cannot give anymore - typical manifestations of that particular lack of balance are physical ailments, fatigue, depression or anxiety etc.

    I have put myself in that unhealthy state too, so I can speak from experience ... I still am learning about finding my own balance.

    So it is incumbent on the givers to protect themselves in some way.
    It is; yes it is.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #79
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yvonne View Post
    now we're getting into the core of Fi. for me it's about accepting it and then controlling it... defining/ redefining your values... and trying to practice what you preach.
    How very intruiging.

    Well, I think I am going to refrain from posting anymore of my thoughts about love, etc.. This thread is getting overrun by F's and I feel like a jerk who goes about snatching lolipops out of babies mouths.

    W'an law've.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  10. #80
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Initially, I did have your child in there, but felt it too harsh so made it more generic.



    Could you forgive them? After all, from a distance one could forgive anything, almost, no? A kind of emotional rationalization?

    Does that have anything to even do with Fi?

    Remember though, I don't specifically disagree with you; I am throwing out some thought-challenges.

    These concepts we speak of are no new thoughts; there is much wisdom to be gained from study too.
    Honestly I dont know if I am left with much of a choice-I either forgive and let the negativity go-or I act upon the situation to find resolution. To carry hatred inside of me? It will well up and turn into an inferno of Ne amplification, contaminating everything I do with hurt. ENFPs make the best terrorists. I am not kidding.

    Isnt rationalization/analysis of emotions one of the tasks of Fi? You feel something very strongly, so you seek into the mesh that is Fi rules/values/axioms to try and figure out what to do about the strong emotions you feel-to process them?

    (^^I am uncertain if this is correct actually??? instead i typically quell emotions with pure logic. Even more strange-I think I value (using Fi) logic (which is the result of Te). So my logical answer is logical-and I feel very strongly about it-due to logic being so highly valued as an Fi value. I actually and somewhat offended (in an Fi sense) when logic is ignored. This is really weird and I dont quite understand it yet. I am kinda odd.)

    This was kind of what I was poking at in Z's thread-as an extrovert, I feel driven to act upon the things I "value" to seek resolution. If those Fi values are extremely intricate and well defined, I will be endless acting upon them using tert Te. So instead it makes me think enfps may be designed to function of less well defined Fi rules-thus we can seem like little kids at at times but we use Te to help guide us on practical applications of rules and learn to reign in Ne as well.

    I would assume as an INFP, you guys use Ne to perceive the situation and feelings differently or maybe Si to apply catagories of isolation? Thus the black/white dualism mentioned above? But please forgive if this is totally wrong as I have no idea, just tossing ideas out there.

    I have lots of room to grow though...



    I think I drug AA's thread off topic. For another flavor of love see Kali above. She has the heads of men as a necklace and the arms of boys as a belt. It looks terrifying, yet the theme is one of looking at the darkness within yourself, understanding it all is part of one united enitity-good, bad, evil, everything-and appreciating the beauty of that thing. This is a theme seen in several branches of hinduisism. I think if there is a god-it is everything, purely monistic. but yeah I dunno... (sorry for the derail AA!)

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