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  1. #11
    Junior Member multicell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    What if some people find their own success in giving others advice on how not to "fail"?

    well that would fit in with the same system we have in play today........you wouldn't impose your advice on someone who didn't want it would you?
    yours truly

  2. #12
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    If the consequences and costs where purely individual I'd agree with you.
    Agreed. Or if that person asked for input, they should be ready for whatever is said.

  3. #13
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by multicell View Post
    I am firm believer in allowing people to be any kind of fuck up they want to be. Once a person has received the endowment of basic communication and functioning skills why not let them explore their own world?
    I think i see where you are coming from. Why do we have to live in a society so obsessed with a constant barage of..."you must do this, then this, then that, after that you can do this"

    Quote Originally Posted by multicell View Post
    • let people get an education
    • let people fall into their own creative outlets
    • or let people fall away from all of it and maybe give them the chance to go in a new direction before everything innovative dies
    Absolutely, allow people to chose their own paths instead of force feeding them your own goals set out like a map with only one direction to follow.

    Quote Originally Posted by multicell View Post
    That's my philosophy, yet I can't get anyone to leave me alone and I doubt I'm the only one. What's wrong with letting someone fail a little? Maybe we'll actually advance as a people if those who are going to fail anyways fail and those who are going to succeed (having more success than others pretty much being the underlying idea of evolution) succeed and gain a little damn influence! It's quite possible that we might actually become aware of people's actual limits and strengths. There's potential to expand and advance vertically and horizontally and it's wasted (imo) because no one is allowed to fail. Instead everyone is cattled into some homogenized form of success.
    • in school
    • in many workplaces
    • and en mi casa


    Fail and let fail
    Agreed, we need more amazing people in this world and we are closing ourselves down to the possibilities because so many are made to conform to the norm.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  4. #14
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Conformity, Creativity and Presence

    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post
    so many are made to conform to the norm.
    Once we learn to conform, we then have the possibility to learn to create.

    The military have this problem, for to be a successful soldier, you need to conform. But we find successful generals are creative.

    But even successful generals need to move beyond creativity to presence.

    Imagine how difficult this is for a general, as those most present in our lives are celebrities. So how can a creative general move to celebrity, present to millions?

    Can you imagine a general taking tips from Paris Hilton.

    I first met this problem of the military in the book, "The Psychology of Military Incompetence", by Norman Dixon. And he only deals with the problem of moving from conformity to creativity. The problem and opportunity of moving to presence is yet to be addressed.

  5. #15
    Earth Exalted Thursday's Avatar
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    Indeed. Poeple should be allowed and encouraged to make their own mistakes and develop their own success. Being defined by another's view and expectations on happiness and welfare is the most pitiful fate that can be witnessed while alive.
    I N V I C T U S

  6. #16
    Junior Member multicell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Once we learn to conform, we then have the possibility to learn to create.
    It's not exactly what I'm getting at but it's brilliant and relevant point. If you do choose a particular structured path like the military or even something that may seem creative in nature like writing or photography you do have to be disciplined and it's usually best to learn the techniques developed before your time...no man is an island... otherwise really doing something innovative or progressive at all is nearly impossible and doing something great is unlikely.
    yours truly

  7. #17
    Junior Member multicell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    If the consequences and costs where purely individual I'd agree with you.
    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Agreed. Or if that person asked for input, they should be ready for whatever is said.

    Well, can anyone provide an example of a believable situation in which someone else's idea of success could be imposed on someone else in the name of good for a third party in which they would actually prevent harm to a third party? Honestly I can't think of any in which the government wouldn't step in first, after all people are responsible for themselves for the most part and children (referencing lark's example from earlier) fall under particular laws that protect them from neglect and if those laws were being broken there'd be nothing you could do to stop it personally without becoming a vigilante of sorts probably scaring the child even further or calling the proper authorities who would not push success on the parent but rather take the child.
    yours truly

  8. #18
    Junior Member multicell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thursday View Post
    Indeed. Poeple should be allowed and encouraged to make their own mistakes and develop their own success. Being defined by another's view and expectations on happiness and welfare is the most pitiful fate that can be witnessed while alive.
    thankyou =]]

    not only for agreeing but also for understanding the point
    yours truly

  9. #19
    Junior Member multicell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post
    Absolutely, allow people to chose their own paths instead of force feeding them your own goals set out like a map with only one direction to follow.
    Haha now if only we could tell that to parents who try to relive their youth through their little span.
    come on little Timmy you kick that goal
    ..but dad I'm on crutches.

    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post
    Agreed, we need more amazing people in this world and we are closing ourselves down to the possibilities because so many are made to conform to the norm.
    true we do lose the opportunity for some mighty amazing people but the opposite extreme would be present too which I guess is why some people are so ardent with pressing others.
    yours truly

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by multicell View Post
    I don't understand where your abolishment so many systems comes into play here, is that purely a response to niffer? If it's a response to me I think we've miscommunicated a bit because I'm not talking about something nearly so radical.

    You can let people fail at being parents and then simply take their children away, that's what we do today. Letting someone fail doesn't mean not upholding the system in which they're failing. I can proudly tell you this as a product of failure parents and the foster home system.
    Oh right OK, I read you as opposing those systems since in the UK they all exist pretty much to prevent where possible failure then to try and prevent other inevitable consequences or further failures.

    So, using the example of social services, they intervene to try and prevent family breakdown, more specifically parental breakdown, when that doesnt work they try to prevent the childrens welfare being jeopardised by the child's inability, and anticipate failure, to look after themselves.

    Pretty much ALL public services are dealing with failures of nature and/or nurture on a variety of scales, if we decide that these failures are tolerable or even necessary its a matter of dispensing with all these services. Herbert Spencer wrote about this at length.

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