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  1. #61
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    durentu- you've just hit on a concept that I've always found appealing... and if there's one thing I NEED at times it's some mental quiet and peace... I've always found an appeal to walking meditation in that aspect as well... just the process of walking can calm me down a bit and help me focus... and the internet IS chaos!

    owl dear, I don't think you are getting me here... note the E in my type... connecting with people is as important as connecting with myself to me... what's the point of thinking something if you can't discuss it for a greater understanding and sense of touch?
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  2. #62
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm a little confused, because its unfair it can not be? Or is religious observance just about satisfying some needs of your own like shopping? Not being critical or judgemental you understand, its just interesting to hear the rationalisations at work here.
    I know this wasn't directed at me, but I'd like to state the opinion of such here as well since yeu want to see rationalizations.



    - God is better than me
    - I can understand that an infinite punishment for a finite sin is irrational
    - God created hell (or will create) with the intent of providing infinite punishment for finite sins
    - God therefore is not better than me
    - I can understand that hinting there MAY be a punishment but not really specifying absolutely will tempt some to test their luck out of curiousity if nothing else
    - God refuses to provide absolute undeniable proof that hell exists
    - God therefore is actually significantly below me


    Regardless of any argument one can make about fairness or god works in mysterious ways and so on... all comes down to the presupposition that I am smarter, wiser, and more caring than god is. In which case he fails to reach the status of god in the first place.

    One can only therefore assume that either hell is not real, we are being misinformed about it's purpose, or god is not worth worshiping, or not real.

    There is no capacity for hell to exist, with god playing the role of judge, jury and executioner and the one who built hell in the first place, and still maintain god as a loving, all knowing, all seeing being. Something has to give in this argument somewheres. God CAN NOT EXIST in the belief of being an all loving and all knowing being if hell exists in the incarnation we assume it does.

    Therefore, as there's limited to no evidence for hell, but some anecdotal evidence to support god, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that god probably doesn't exist in the way the bible claims he does, and that hell probably doesn't exist at all, or is a limited duration thing.

    Since I'm obviously not godlike (even if I may claim so occasionally, it's kinda obvious it's not true), and even *I* can see the inherent flaws in an infinite punishment system such as hell, one can only assume that god's realized the same before I did.

    If not, then god's not worth worshiping in the first place, and considering the definition of heaven by the bible, that WOULD be my definition of hell. Being stuck for eternity giving false praise to a false god who doesn't deserve any of it.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Hirsch63's Avatar
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    Have you ever heard the phase "standing so close to the light that you cannot see it?"

    Seeking the divine presence through the filter of these various religions you have sampled is awkward at best. As your experience in the convent demonstrated, acts of the devout happen here, now. No other human stands between you and your creator. Even if you chose to follow a path it would lead eventually right back to you.

    We have to start somewhere when we go down this path. I chose the ten commandments as a reasonable approach to life...certainly I fail to achieve them, but I do not lose sight of the ultimate goal. I chose atheism for awhile and it helped me gain perspective....then agnostic and now...well a little more than that.

    It may be that when we doubt ourselves we doubt whatever(!) divine potential has given us to use. It disturbs me to see you dispair this way. You have been a source of joy and wit on these boards....Brutally honest about yourself often, endearing and I suspect already conforming (for the most part...) to your divine potential. Does "God" love you? Hell, I don't know....I'm not sure that he loves me....I am mindful of his laws and wether I believe or not these laws are a pretty good set of suggestions. I try to live up to them because they make common sense, and I don't have to worry about all the dross humans have heaped onto the divine since time immemorial.
    Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings...Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you a king

  4. #64
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    owl dear, I don't think you are getting me here... note the E in my type... connecting with people is as important as connecting with myself to me... what's the point of thinking something if you can't discuss it for a greater understanding and sense of touch?
    So understanding trumps connection?

    Or, perhaps stated more clearly, true connection is impossible apart from shared understanding?

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    yeah, I don't think I could beleive in a religion that didn't support questioning... that would make it too cultlike for me...

    and I actually enjoyed going to temple because of the discussions of doing good and the fact that they didn't talk about "the evils of sin"... a positive focus is totally a wonderful thing- too many places I've been said "don't do this- it's evil" as opposed to "try to do good"

    and one thing that I remembered that's always stuck in my mind is actually writen by an astrologer she intentionally mixed up the word Good with God while writing... I kind of liked that in a way
    Yeah. There's no belief in the original sin.

  6. #66
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    I think that the circumstances you perceive as "God's unlove" (if you will) are as perfect as his love gets.

    It makes you think. It's uncomfortable.

  7. #67
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeafAndSky View Post
    From anywhere on the mountain, there are the stars. Best wishes.

  8. #68
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Also remember that someone as charitable as Mother Theresa had some correspondance with a priest that came out after she died...where she went as far as doubting God's presence in her life.

    "the silence and the emptiness is so great, that I look and do not see, — Listen and do not hear — the tongue moves [in prayer] but does not speak ... I want you to pray for me — that I let Him have [a] free hand."

    "The smile.." "is a cloak that covers everything." "I spoke as if my very heart was in love with God — tender, personal love.." "If you were [there], you would have said, 'What hypocrisy.'"

    "Please pray specially for me that I may not spoil His work and that Our Lord may show Himself — for there is such terrible darkness within me, as if everything was dead. It has been like this more or less from the time I started 'the work.'"

    But maybe the important (and ironic) thing is that she tried to help.. more than most people.

  9. #69
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    lol... katsuni has the same logic on why hell must not be!

    thanks hirsch I've always kind of felt that all religions were merely different paths that people took towards the same goal... different paths for different manners of understanding- despite being raised in a Christian culture, it never really resonated with me in a way that some things have, though I admire what some people can and have done with it... and I can think of one or two commandments I haven't broken (murder and I'm not particularly envious)

    owl- I need to be able to use my manner of interaction and understanding- that includes other people... you do NOT want to be in my presence when I'm writing an essay or you'd totally understand that

    01011010- yeah... the concept of origional sin has always irked me... especially when it's blamed on women :steam:

    disregard... now I want to beat God up... I have a feeling that sounds terrible

    kdude- I remember reading that article- the fact that she still did all that she did is remarkable
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  10. #70
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    This is only directed at the existence of God part of your argument (bolded).

    If there were compelling evidence it wouldn't be called faith... Would it?

    And without the requirement of faith, believing in a higher power would be like believing the sky is blue... Easily provable, yet not very meaningful.

    Also, your arguments are sounding more lawyerly by the minute!

    (hope all is going well)
    No, I suppose you're right--if not for faith, you'd have to actually resort to taking ideas on their own merits.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I was replying to the original poster who seemed to be suggesting it was unfair and why would you believe in a God which would create it or permit its existence.
    I know, and that person intended to show why he considers Hell unlikely to exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Anyway, some of the depictions of hell and hades are absurd, although I will say that as a state of seperateness from God it can be experienced in this life or the afterlife and its a CHOICE people make, though some people deal with the consequences of that choice well, existentialism etc. are interesting.

    The it doesnt exist as opposed to its unfair is a different question, you are right about that.
    In other words, if you interpret Hell abstractly enough you can eventually make it sorta resemble earthly suffering to justify its existence?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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