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  1. #51
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Owl- I actually did lay out the basis of what I beleive at some point a few pages ago... somehow it doesn't help when a lot of the beleifs aren't shared by anyone around me... I need connections in everything- to people, to nature, to something bigger than me and I guess I am missing out on some of that because I don't really know anyone who could even fit in that category in a way

    Jennifer- yeah, I won't go for any religion that beleives in hell really... which is just about everywhere around here... I have been informed by family members that they pray that my heritical ways don't land me there

    MT- I do love myself (in more than one way) but I have trouble being at peace with myself- it's more like loving your sister because she's your sister and you see her positive qualities, but arguing with her all of the time because of her negative ones

    Lark- I refuse to beleive in something that I consider hideously unfair... that's part of why I mentioned it... and that beleif in it is engrained in the local culture here
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  2. #52
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever;1148626[B
    Lark[/B], you just reminded me of another reason why I really am discomforted by the Bible- the idea of predestination... Judas being destined to tell on Jesus and then sent to hell?! That's downright mean! And I guess the point that I didn't agree with the cultural filters I grew up around isn't much help either
    I refuse to believe in pre-destination, its the reason that in the final analysis I'm a Roman Catholic rather than any other sort of Christian, I know there's been some kind of consensus reached between the RC church and the Lutherans on this now but I tend to agree with Erasmus not Luther in the free will vs. predestination.

    Some of the conclusions reached as a result of belief in predestination are absurd, you ever read Confessions of a Justified Sinner? Not a good recommend for establishing or shoring up faith I guess but anyway, I'm not myopic or adverse to contrary perspectives when it comes to faith or life in general.

    Culturally I think that predestination contributed to the rise of Capitalism, although in a kind of alternative history fantasy Michael Swanwick in Jack Faust described how it may have happened anyway.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    Lark- I refuse to beleive in something that I consider hideously unfair... that's part of why I mentioned it... and that beleif in it is engrained in the local culture here
    I'm a little confused, because its unfair it can not be? Or is religious observance just about satisfying some needs of your own like shopping? Not being critical or judgemental you understand, its just interesting to hear the rationalisations at work here.

  4. #54
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm a little confused, because its unfair it can not be? Or is religious observance just about satisfying some needs of your own like shopping? Not being critical or judgemental you understand, its just interesting to hear the rationalisations at work here.
    basic logic...

    I couldn't even send my worst enemy to a place of eternal damnation

    I am a human being, and therefore not as good as God is supposed to be

    How could someone better than me do something that I consider too cruel?

    Either I'm nicer than God, or eternal damnation is the name of a hot resort... and I don't care to beleive in anyone who isn't nicer than I am... and I don't give me any of that Just argument on it- I tend to beleive in karma, but nothing ETERNAL... if I want that sort of justice I'll start shooting people or something!

    plus, it doesn't make sense to me
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  5. #55
    Senior Member durentu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    durentu- actually, I'm not really interested in being religious in the perspective in which I was brought up in it... it didn't make sense to me so it didn't resonate- which probably explains why I have a long history of reading books on science during church and quit going once I moved out I was actually lent a copy of the I Ching by a nun and found it to be somehow a lot more calming than anything that I had read in the Bible- the sense of balance... almost a stillness, which is something I need to learn and want to embrace in a way... however, living in central Indiana kind of limits one's resources on other religions
    I find that breathing meditation is helpful. Watching the mind be distracted and able to refocus the mind back to a focus object.

    Another thing is japanese water gardens and flower arrangement. The concept of wabi sabi and shibui. Shibui - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    From modern psychology, the natural state of the mind is chaos. Being able to focus it or blocking distractions is a good practice for that stillness. Also, the experience of flow is helpful as well. Csikszentimihalyi's book on flow and creativity is helpful. Also, in his book 'the evolving self', he talks about the veils of maya and how these illusions distort reality.

    Just keep at it and you'll find it. You don't need indiana, the internet has many resources.
    "People often say that this or that person has not yet found himself. But the self is not something one finds; it is something one creates." - Thomas Szasz

  6. #56
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    Owl- I actually did lay out the basis of what I beleive at some point a few pages ago... somehow it doesn't help when a lot of the beleifs aren't shared by anyone around me... I need connections in everything- to people, to nature, to something bigger than me and I guess I am missing out on some of that because I don't really know anyone who could even fit in that category in a way
    Let's grant that what you believe is true. Does your need to connect to people trump your need to witness to what you know to be true? (Is there even a need to witness to the truth?)

    I mean you could just go through the motions at church in order to get your personal connection fix. You might have to tow a doctrinal line you disagree with, but is that such a high price to pay?

  7. #57
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Not being critical or judgemental you understand, its just interesting to hear the rationalisations at work here.
    Christ.

  8. #58
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    uumlau- I like the God is love idea... of course, in the churches I grew up in it was just given a breif mention between lessons on Sodom and Gamorrah and the Plagues in Egypt I've never seen a point to existing if you didn't at least respect your fellow human beings... and have always had the horrible tendancy to actually LIKE people

    gromit- I'll have to check that book out when I head to the library on Wednesday! It sounds quite interesting! and you reminded me of this quote from Dogma

    Bethany: So you're saying that having beliefs is a bad thing?
    Rufus: I just think it's better to have an idea. You can change an idea; changing a belief is trickier. People die for it, people kill for it.



    Lightyear- I somehow relate to INFJ thought in a way, despite being your evil opposite... though more from a Se perspective in a way... where's the fun if there's nothing to it? Faith minus action is pointless, and faith is a thing of mystery in a way, not logic

    and now more books to add to the list! (and puns are awesome! )
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  9. #59
    Senior Member LeafAndSky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    That's been my experience, at least. But I'm not the best person to talk to on the subject by any stretch of the imagination. It's difficult to imagine a worse person tbh.
    The fact that you can write those three sentences probably makes you one of the best to talk with.

    To Whatever, regarding your quest, sounds like you've got the t-shirt (the one with the question mark), you've got the library (and likely the bookmarked websites), you've been in a tradition, checked out other traditions, and even Whitmanized yourself.

    I remember wanting the childhood feeling of (Christian) community back, and I sympathize. Tolstoy envied the peasants their simple, easy belief. Even the UU church didn't do it for me, nor did a loosely linked pagan community. I don't want specifically religious community anymore. Someone told me last week, "The world is family." Yeah.

    Belief is comforting, I found, until something pokes too hard at its boundaries, and once again it isn't. Comforting. There are many paths up the mountain, as 'they' say, some short and sweet, some long and winding, so I won't tell you my views are right, nor that my resting place on the mountain should be yours.

    What does 'God' mean to me? Why?

    What is 'hell' to me? Why?

    For that matter, what am I?

    What is it that I'm looking for?


    Maybe it's not that "God doesn't love me," maybe it could be that "God has given me a gift." . . . . Or, neither. Only you can say. And your saying might change, and change again.

    From anywhere on the mountain, there are the stars. Best wishes.

  10. #60
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    gromit- I'll have to check that book out when I head to the library on Wednesday! It sounds quite interesting! and you reminded me of this quote from Dogma

    Bethany: So you're saying that having beliefs is a bad thing?
    Rufus: I just think it's better to have an idea. You can change an idea; changing a belief is trickier. People die for it, people kill for it.

    Ha ha ha... that quote is funny (but sort of true in sometimes good but sometimes terrible ways). p.s. I know what you mean about wanting a sense of calm.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

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