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  1. #121
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Victor... loving all doesn't mean loving nothing... I love all flavors of tea that I've ever tried... it doesn't mean that I don't love them

    Peguy... does this mean that there shall be lines like "now, bend over and receive your naughty sacriments! ?
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  2. #122
    Senior Member Iriohm's Avatar
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    Default RE: whatever

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    To start off- I'm not intentionally anti-religious by any means- I grew up with a mother who loved to go to church and has the pleasant and gentle view that God's there for us whether we want him to be or not, and he loves us all equally. This should have been a good grounds to feeling SOMETHING towards God, I'd think, but apparently it wasn't

    To make it more confusing, I even spent 4 months living in a convent as part of a room and board package once... they were cool nuns, they loved humanity in general and had such an optimistic and non-judgemental attitude towards it. They really DID put their faith into good works to help the poor, the sick, the un-spoken... even if the people in question weren't even Christian- they were wonderful people, but I still didn't FEEL anything

    I've gone to various different types of churches- I've been to temple several times, I have gone to mosque on several occasions, to a few pagan celebrations... I've studied Hinduism, Buddhism and have even attended a Ba'hai service and still I don't feel that I fit...

    What's up with this God fellow and why does he taunt me so?

    I would LOVE to beleive in something, have a community of a sort and have that feeling of safety, calm and acceptance that people can find with religion but it just doesn't click. Part of this is because I feel that who I AM doesn't quite jive correctly with a lot of religions- for some I'm too exhuberant and fascinated by sensory experiences, for some I am an evil sinful harlot... and I can't stand the idea of a religion that would send anyone to Hell... if I couldn't do it I sure as hell don't want to beleive in a God who would

    And it's not that I'm an atheist either- I beleive in something- just the thought that I can't quite put my finger on it really bugs me... religions fascinate me, I love reading about them, but I can't manage to fit in

    What sort of sick bastard of a deity would do that to a person?
    *inclines head while making a complicated "hand-clasping" gesture*

    I salute you, fellow wanderer, and answer with a collection of opinions I've developed on the generalness of this increasingly lengthy conversation:

    1. I am of the belief that we stick ourselves in Hell. The ties connecting the soul to the body are severed upon death, which means pretty much everything from that point onwards defaults to a matter of the mind. Hell itself has been described as the one place "God" doesn't look, and that makes sense, so turning away from him/her is quite literally putting yourself in that place. Of course, once you turn away, I expect it's quite difficult to turn back without outside help.

    2. "God" is the supreme creator of the WSOGMM (look it up), and thus must remain at least partially neutral. Strife promotes growth, after all; what would be the point if he/she just stepped in and righted all wrongs? Having said that, I will also point out the fallacy of "happily ever after": they don't exist, because the story never ends. It's simply the rest period between the triumph of good over evil, and when evil inevitably re-rises.

    3. The universe is, technically, a cold and unfeeling place, built on rules that care little for the individual. Luckily, the word "technically" implies looking at something from a thinkers perspective, with logic alone, and, while that works well for the science of things, the universe is too simply too large and too complicated for it. It's like looking for a large, invisible, dome-shaped structure by looking everywhere it's not. You walk round and round, exploring every inch of the pathway surrounding it, and find nothing, but if you do that enough, you eventually get a sense of something missing from the picture; just barely tangible, but definitely there.

    All in all, my advice is to not worry about it, and to not force it. Like the universe, over-thinking things makes them harder to feel, and Belief is definitely on Feeler ground.

    Such is my opinion, none of it strictly canon. Make of it what you will.
    "Quiiri ath metahn i'ashei?"
    Chronically Gephyrophobic

  3. #123
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I overthink anything and everything if it crosses my mind... this is why I so desperatly want mental peace and quiet- my brain is EVIL

    of course what sort of omniscient being wouldn't want to just sit back and watch a grand social experiment... I remember the Futurama episode Godfellas, where Bender is god of a bunch of tiny creatures that live on him in space- by directly interfering or ignoring things, in turn, he's a complete and total failure... he then meets god, who tells him that he's given up on preforming miracles, because direct intervention fails, and that if you do interfere, do it with a light touch, like safe cracking or insurance fraud... I kind of liked the quote "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"... sorry, that somehow reminded me
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  4. #124
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Well as the the resident reformed christian I'll throw my two cents on the journey of faith.

    First of all I think you are right to reject forms of religion that do not permit questioning. Many forms of Christianity look down on questioning. While ultimately I think a Christian should submit themselves to the scriptures, determining what they say should be through a rational process. Faith may take a leap of belief, but it must be reasonable and should not be inconsistent. The reformed tradition is a reasonable faith that ought to promote both faith and questioning. It believes that although we can know much of the truth we can never arrive at a total understanding of the truth, thus the mantra of the reformation is "sempre reformanda" which means "always reforming."

    You speak a lot about your feelings in your search. I believe feelings and experience are unhelpful in the search for truth. They are way too subjective and unreliable. For instance let's take the belief that God is sovereign, that he is in control of the universe. In my life there are times when I'm more likely to believe that and times I'm less likely to believe it. When I see the images of an earthquake ravaged Haiti my feelings of sadness make it difficult to believe that God would ultimately be responsible for that happening... and yet those feelings have nothing to do with the truth of the matter.

    Likewise, last summer I was turned down for a Visa within 3 days of having to depart for europe. It seemed my trip would be impossible, but as things turned out after a series of remarkable events I received my visa within an hour of my flight departing. After that I certainly felt like God was in control. But, again my feelings on the matter have absolutely nothing to do with the truth of whether God is sovereign or not. It could have just been a series of coincidences that led to my good fate.

    The point of all this is that I believe there is a divine order. I believe that we must discover the truth first and if we cling to the truth and rely on it then the feelings will follow.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  5. #125
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I can't beleive something that I don't feel anything towards anything more than I can make out with someone I feel nothing for... it just feels empty
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  6. #126
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I can't beleive something that I don't feel anything towards anything more than I can make out with someone I feel nothing for... it just feels empty
    I'm not saying feelings are not important... they're critical. I'm just saying they're secondary to reason when determining the truth.

    If I didn't feel anything ever when I went to church then you can bet I would have stopped attending a long time ago. But, I don't make the decision to attend because it feels right.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  7. #127
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    We created God.

  8. #128
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Beefeater- yeah, I know what seems perfectly logical to me in some aspects, it's just that I can't figure out where that fits in a way... I just haven't been to any church of any sort that really *clicked* in a way. I left the church I was raised in because it didn't resonate in a way

    beat- social construct or not, I want to beleive!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  9. #129
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Non Serviam and Sempre Reformanda

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    the mantra of the reformation is "sempre reformanda" which means "always reforming."
    Sound like the mantra of Mao Tse Tung and his permanent revolution.

    And look at the results - Mao decimated his own people in the interests of permanent revolution, and the Reformation produced a thousand different sects in the name of God.

    And we all know that reorganisation is the mantra of an organisation when it is not having any organisation.

    And permanent Reformation is what the dictator of heaven uses to keep us busy.

    And the business of the Reformation is business, as we see in the book, "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism", by Max Weber.

    No, non serviam (I will not serve) is the only moral response to sempre reformanda.

    Servility is the morality of slaves.

  10. #130
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    now I guess I should toss out the little red book as a religious aspiration...

    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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