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  1. #11
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    And some of the others fell into the same category. The only relevant experiences your remarks seem to address are the visions (such as when Paul talks about himself being caught up in the "seventh heaven" or something similar).
    And some of the visions (like Revelation) seem more like metaphor etc than actually visions as such, which would have been understood by the target audience.

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carebear View Post
    And some of the visions (like Revelation) seem more like metaphor etc than actually visions as such, which would have been understood by the target audience.
    No, Revelation was definitely a drug trip.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    No, Revelation was definitely a drug trip.
    LOL!

    (I was referring to the "covert criticism of the Roman Empire w. the number of the beast being Nero/Caligula/Domitian"-interpretation, but even if that's correct I still see how it would have been impossible without drugs.)

  4. #14
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carebear View Post
    (I was referring to the "covert criticism of the Roman Empire w. the number of the beast being Nero/Caligula/Domitian"-interpretation, but even if that's correct I still see how it would have been impossible without drugs.)
    I'm not even sure what to make of it. From what I just read recently, it fits a lot of apocalyptic literature of the day and age, where Jesus suddenly returns as an avenger and conquerer.

    I need to do more reading. It's interesting to look at Christian scripture as an evolving document, and how the surrounding culture at the time impacted what was written and incorporated.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #15
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm not even sure what to make of it. From what I just read recently, it fits a lot of apocalyptic literature of the day and age, where Jesus suddenly returns as an avenger and conquerer.
    Yes, that'd fit the "criticism against Roman empire" interpretation rather well, I think. The Palm Sunday story seems to describe the same expectations of Jesus.

    I need to do more reading. It's interesting to look at Christian scripture as an evolving document, and how the surrounding culture at the time impacted what was written and incorporated.

    Yes! I love that approach, and am a bit ashamed I haven't come around to reading as much on it as I planned. If my goal is to objectively investigate Christianity from the outside, I really should read much more on the subject. (And I know several historians and Christian scholars have done a lot in this field, so I really have no good excuses.) If you come across any good books on the subject I'd love to know.

  6. #16
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carebear View Post
    Yes! I love that approach, and am a bit ashamed I haven't come around to reading as much on it as I planned. If my goal is to objectively investigate Christianity from the outside, I really should read much more on the subject. (And I know several historians and Christian scholars have done a lot in this field, so I really have no good excuses.) If you come across any good books on the subject I'd love to know.
    Well, I just finished "The Birth of Satan" -- an excellent book, because the author took great pains to specify what they could and could not say. (I.e., "We're not saying this is WHAT happened, but this is how it could be perceived and what might be probable."

    They reviewed the evolution of YHWH, Satan, hell, and heaven from the OT to the NT. Christians tend to view the entire Bible as one cohesive book, but it can also be viewed as it evolved historically, and you can see changes in the concepts of these things, as influenced by culture, if you read the Bible chronologically and look for the pattern. It removes some of the inconsistencies that Christians have to dance around today.

    (For example, if God is omnipotent and in control of everything, how do we justify the occurrence of bad things? It must be God's fault. The only reasoning we can come up with is, "Well, it must all be for a good reason," but that still leaves God with "allowing evil" and being ultimately responsible for it. So we then blame Satan for those things.)

    Sorry, tangent. My bad. I will stop now.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #17
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, I just finished "The Birth of Satan" -- an excellent book, because the author took great pains to specify what they could and could not say. (I.e., "We're not saying this is WHAT happened, but this is how it could be perceived and what might be probable."

    They reviewed the evolution of YHWH, Satan, hell, and heaven from the OT to the NT. Christians tend to view the entire Bible as one cohesive book, but it can also be viewed as it evolved historically, and you can see changes in the concepts of these things, as influenced by culture, if you read the Bible chronologically and look for the pattern. It removes some of the inconsistencies that Christians have to dance around today.

    (For example, if God is omnipotent and in control of everything, how do we justify the occurrence of bad things? It must be God's fault. The only reasoning we can come up with is, "Well, it must all be for a good reason," but that still leaves God with "allowing evil" and being ultimately responsible for it. So we then blame Satan for those things.)

    Sorry, tangent. My bad. I will stop now.
    No, please keep the tangents up. Especially book recommendations. I really like how, for instance, Chomsky is able to so succinctly put down on paper, "this is what we know for sure, this is what people are assuming because of x, y, and z, and this is our best guess based off of this evidence. but it could also be a, b, c.".

    It's hard to find that style of information in Christian books. I'm no theologist. I want someone else to do the work for me so I can springboard off into my own direction
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  8. #18
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, I just finished "The Birth of Satan" -- an excellent book, because the author took great pains to specify what they could and could not say. (I.e., "We're not saying this is WHAT happened, but this is how it could be perceived and what might be probable."

    They reviewed the evolution of YHWH, Satan, hell, and heaven from the OT to the NT. Christians tend to view the entire Bible as one cohesive book, but it can also be viewed as it evolved historically, and you can see changes in the concepts of these things, as influenced by culture, if you read the Bible chronologically and look for the pattern. It removes some of the inconsistencies that Christians have to dance around today.

    (For example, if God is omnipotent and in control of everything, how do we justify the occurrence of bad things? It must be God's fault. The only reasoning we can come up with is, "Well, it must all be for a good reason," but that still leaves God with "allowing evil" and being ultimately responsible for it. So we then blame Satan for those things.)

    Sorry, tangent. My bad. I will stop now.
    I agree with Usehername. Tangents != Fluff. Tangents = Potential for evolution.

    I will definitely look for TheBoS. It's exactly that kind of approach I'm looking for. Having studied history, I've come to see how history itself is evolving and constantly has to be reviewed, because history never only describes, but also has an agenda and interprets according to the current world view.
    If we approach the Bible as a collection of historical sources instead of "God's Inerrant Words To Mankind", it no longer matters how many inconsistencies and contradictions they contain, because it's only to be expected that different historians/traditions would have differed on exactly what happened. Everything we know about e.g. antiquity is based on far more inconsistent sources than the ones we find in the Bible. The important thing is trying to figure out why they wrote what they wrote, which biases they held, what can be verified by contemporary sources and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername
    I didn't explain my 1st post as well as I should have. I definitely have personally experienced all sorts of MBTI types voice things God has told them. Even lots of S types.
    Same here. Especially lots of S types. XSTJ's, ESFJs and quite a few ESXPs, but I've heard most types voice messages from God. It's impressive how God always seems to tell people what they'd prefer to hear, and I've for instance never ever heard him tell an XSTJ not to worry (Matt 6:25-34) or not to judge (Luke 6:37->). So needless to say take the messages from God with a grain of salt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername
    I was wondering if it was related to how Ni functions, is all. That could mean that a lot of Ni dominant Christians never "hear" from God this way, and also Ni-barely-used people could be prophets. I was just looking for a correlation between Ni and prophecy b/c I read about it somewhere. More of a correlation in the sense of how it comes to be known.
    The way Ni works could easily be experienced as God suddenly making it all clear. Ni seems to be working subconsciously to a large extent and only throws the final answers to the conscious mind (and not the pages upon pages of calculation). Near future prophecies could therefore easily have been results of an active Ni.

    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername
    The stuff I wonder if it's prophecy about for me, is really long-term statistically improbable things that have started to come true. I have more than a few of those. More like I watched a story unfold in my head and it's bugging me b/c it looks like it has the potential to come true, regardless of how improbable it is.
    Some of it already has. But it's like 1/100 chance x 1/100 chance... I'm not very far along with things yet. (Some are age/life-stage related.) So I can't see how this pans out for a while.
    Confirmation bias, strong Ni, the immense amounts of improbable things out there that makes it rather probable that quite a few improbable things will happen to most people, self fulfilling prophecies, God... there are countless explanations if it does indeed happen.

  9. #19
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sassafrassquatch View Post
    When you talk to God it's called prayer. When God talks to you it's called schizophrenia.
    A bid is a command.
    Schizophrenia is small beans.

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