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  1. #61
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I think there's a sorta culture in the West where independence is revered out of all proportion, so like it's considered sad and pathetic and just stupid for someone to want/need company or comfort.
    I think it's more society has gotten 'industrialized' out of control and people are disconnected and purposely kept in the dark about how things are connected and how they work. Like most people in the states don't know where their food comes from or how their chicken got on their plate or how someone ended up getting elected. Everything is prepackaged and sold in big-box stores. And yes, needing others is seen as weakness. Not to mention people are terrified of one another, it's like Babel and society is struggling to create/enforce a common cultural reader. There are still pockets of communities though in the states that are much closer and community feeling.

    Back 'home' home (in the land of my forebearer's births, haha) as soon as you move into a new apartment building, you go to each neighbor bearing sweets and introduce yourself. Each apartment and neighborhood has an organization of folks who meet regularly. Supposedly agrarian based societies are much more communally minded even as they move into the crazy fast paced modern world...but I'm pretty sure most modern civilizations started out agrarian. 'They' also say Asian cultures are traditionally more hierarchal, but 'they' forget there is a great deal of familiarity as well and the converse of a lot of intimacy in relationships i.e. 'high-context'.

    I heard in mainland China, the idea of 'gated communities' are not taking off. Folks who can afford it basically say it's "lonely" living in the outskirts of cities in these isolated communities.

    I also heard in Greece perfect strangers will intervene when they see a man getting violent in an argument with a woman. And ask what's wrong, try to talk it out, etc.

    Oh, and people in my home hometown also argue a lot more in general. Like in the street all the time. Perfect strangers. As opposed to in the states where there's a lot more hostility and fear and general uneasiness in public spaces but people are too scared of one another's differences to be more aggro about it. Except when that uneasiness boils over and someone stabs someone else.

    Alright -- off topic!

    Back to the thread!

  2. #62
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Well, if people don't cooperate then more stuff is sold. Lots of households in a block of apartments all sharing three washing machines and dryers doesn't sell as much stuff as all those people having a washing machine and a dryer each so they never need to talk to each other...
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  3. #63
    To the top of the world arcticangel02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I tend to find that if I can be in the presence of a few strong intuitives for a while, it's like I suddenly become solid and real, and even experience short bursts of Se where I become aware of the physical environment. Sometimes it makes me feel dizzy because I suddenly realize how high a ceiling is that I've sat under a million times and not noticed, or how wide a space is that I've walked across a dozen times. Or I suddenly get a shocking sense of perspective of like, the distance from my head to the ground or I hold my hand up to my face and move it back and forth and laugh because it just seems so ...real for the moment.

    Then the moment passes, and I'm back to being a phantom again!
    That sound eerily familiar. It astounds me how you manage to not only realise and recognise that you do that, let alone be able to put it into words and explain it so eloquently?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alcearos View Post
    I have always been very much "in clouds" by myself. I always been very much extrovert and talking to people but in a way I have never been there in that place. I have always been more dreaming about the future or planning the future. I've always been somehow in my own mind without noticing what people really react on me or think about my personality. I never really cared what they thought of me and what my impact was on them until recently.
    Thankfully my N is only moderate, so I alternate - sometimes I can be perfectly down-to-earth and sensible and all that, and even though I do have to concentrate to get there, it is possible. But there are also definitely times when I feel disconnected.

    The thing Alcearos mentioned about talking to people sounds right... I'm there, but at the same time I'm not. Me, the real me, my brain and my thoughts and my imagination are floating up somewhere behind the physical facade, which, whenever I'm not trying to directly communicate the floaty thoughts, seems to operate on a sort of auto-pilot: it knows how to react and to interact and to smile at all the right places without me really needing to be there and in the moment and concentrating fully.

    It's only when those two meet, that I feel my sharpest and quickest. I can do anything!
    ANFP:
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  4. #64
    Member MX5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by targo View Post
    go through life just feeling invisible? Like people only see your smile or your face but that they never see you? Never see who is behind the 'mask'. It seems like people are so busy running that they never stop to listen or to hear what you're saying. As of late I just feel that I am invisible. Do you think it's society as a whole that walks through life like that? Do you think it's a predisposed sort of thing for specific MBTI types? Or do you just think it's a case by case situation?
    This is a life-long circumstance – I treat it a my personal "state of being" (or, non-being as it were).

    As a boy-child with two sisters neatly bracketing me, I felt like the shunned member of an exclusive club. Having a father that tended to his career rather than to his family, I lacked (and grew to not desire) that fraternal connection. I was always the nerdy loner, the outcast, the recluse in elementary, middle and high schools. I never learned to connect with people on a personal, or intimate level – resulting in a pretty disastrous first marriage. So, my "invisibility" was entirely the result of my own incomplete skills.

    Personally, I don't think that I was socialized into this state of being. I've always found it to be uncomfortable and unnatural for me to be "in the mix", and so I typically found myself "on the sidelines". I feel like substitute, in that people notice me (when the do notice me) for something that I've done, "Oh my, you did THAT!?", rather than for who I am (although I will never be ID'ed as the life of the party!). As long as I am useful then my presence is tolerated, and once used, then forgotten.
    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Yes... maybe ENxP's and INxJ's are particularly prone to this feeling because of our extreme detachment from physicalities and also extreme attunement to the intangible. It's kind of inevitable that this will happen because so much of who we are, what makes us tick, is just completely inexplicable to someone who doesn't see it for themselves. It's intuitive, and therefore can't be quantified or explained. And the more you try, the more crazy people think you are, and the more misunderstood you are. They think you base your entire being on things that are, to them, imaginary.
    How very true. I know (through experience) that the world I live in is indescribable and incomprehensible to most other people. I also know that I lack the immediate skills to relay my world to others. By "immediate" I mean that by the time I'm able to construct an adequate explanation of what, and how, I think – it's too late, the flow has moved elsewhere, the attention-span has been lost. I'm exponentially better online because I can construct my thoughts in the time it takes to do so and no one is the wiser that it took me 30 minutes to produce one paragraph. In real-time, that is generally intolerable.
    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I have talked about this with my close friend, an ENTJ. We came to the conclusion that just as we believe we're unnoticed by the sensors, because they're not noticing the parts of us we consider most important, only our physical presences and tangible parts... well, in much the same way, we tend not to notice the tangible parts of other people, and we're always busy looking 'into' them, beyond the material and to the inner substance. Because of this, we don't notice and are not impressed by new haircuts, fashionable clothes, nice cars, things like that, which some people want us to notice, so they believe we're not noticing them, because we're often busy looking hard into parts of them that they're perhaps not aware exist, or at least if they are, they don't put much importance in them.
    Quite true. What is important to me may not be important for others. I have recognized that and I've tried to be better at identifying and remarking on those things that others find fascinating. It takes effort though, and I'm not always up to the task. Sometimes (most times?) it's easier to retreat inward and live life inside my own head. Of course, as I'm often reminded, that's not fair for those that share my life.

    But my question is, do they really share my life, or do they merely want me to be available so that I can "decorate" theirs? I mean, when I expend (what to me is) monumental effort to notice, admire and expound upon their needs, and they spend so little time to attend to mine. Is that sharing?

    But, life was never said to be fair.
    MBC - writing bad poetry, kickin' ass.

  5. #65
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mempy View Post
    Are we talking about insecurities here? I'm so insecure about what I'm worth sometimes. If I am funny, cool, talkative, intelligent, wise and just generally good enough. If I'm worthy. It is something I will probably always, always have to fight myself over.
    My sister has frequently expressed that she feels being an NFP makes her "me-ness" less concrete and difficult to pin down (though to me, she seems very Jaye, with patterns of behavior and likes/dislikes). It frustrates her. Do you find this is a problem for you too?


    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I think it's more society has gotten 'industrialized' out of control and people are disconnected and purposely kept in the dark about how things are connected and how they work... I heard in mainland China, the idea of 'gated communities' are not taking off. Folks who can afford it basically say it's "lonely" living in the outskirts of cities in these isolated communities...I also heard in Greece perfect strangers will intervene when they see a man getting violent in an argument with a woman. And ask what's wrong, try to talk it out, etc.
    VERY interesting. I wish I lived more communally. It's better support for the disabled and elderly and you learn to be responsible for things/people other than your own. I miss the idea of knowing my neighbors. I used to know them when I was in the 'hood because we'd lived there 50 years and all the old folks knew my dead grandparents. They were always stopping me and handing me some anecdote about them. That knit unraveled as the old folks died and the neighborhood decayed further into gang territory.
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  6. #66
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MX5 View Post
    But my question is, do they really share my life, or do they merely want me to be available so that I can "decorate" theirs? I mean, when I expend (what to me is) monumental effort to notice, admire and expound upon their needs, and they spend so little time to attend to mine. Is that sharing?
    Ah, haha... yes. That old chestnut. I wrestle with that one too. You see, our needs are imaginary. They're all in our heads. We "think too much". All we need to do is stop thinking and focus on the immedate and we'll be fine. IOW, just change our entire being, because it's not fair to 'be' a way that other people find difficult to understand. We're the ones with the problem - we bring it all on ourselves, you see?



    Quote Originally Posted by arcticangel02 View Post
    That sound eerily familiar. It astounds me how you manage to not only realise and recognise that you do that, let alone be able to put it into words and explain it so eloquently?
    Familiarity. Plain and simple. When I'm that familiar with anything, I can describe it in my sleep
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by MX5 View Post
    Quite true. What is important to me may not be important for others. I have recognized that and I've tried to be better at identifying and remarking on those things that others find fascinating. It takes effort though, and I'm not always up to the task. Sometimes (most times?) it's easier to retreat inward and live life inside my own head. Of course, as I'm often reminded, that's not fair for those that share my life.

    But my question is, do they really share my life, or do they merely want me to be available so that I can "decorate" theirs? I mean, when I expend (what to me is) monumental effort to notice, admire and expound upon their needs, and they spend so little time to attend to mine. Is that sharing?
    Well, of course you do have to climb down out of your head and find common ground upon which to communicate.

    Quote Originally Posted by MX5 View Post
    I know (through experience) that the world I live in is indescribable and incomprehensible to most other people.
    Most of the lighter conversations here on this message board could be had with just about any social group. The more technical ones concerning MBTI or the more controversial ones on politics and religion would be appropriate for an educated group (a group of young professionals) or a specialized group (a book discussion group, meetings of a psychology- or philosophy-oriented group, a geek/Mensa-style social event, etc.).

    The point is that if you feel like you can interact and share here, then you can find social groups where you can interact and share at the same level in conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MX5 View Post
    I also know that I lack the immediate skills to relay my world to others. By "immediate" I mean that by the time I'm able to construct an adequate explanation of what, and how, I think - it's too late, the flow has moved elsewhere, the attention-span has been lost. I'm exponentially better online because I can construct my thoughts in the time it takes to do so and no one is the wiser that it took me 30 minutes to produce one paragraph. In real-time, that is generally intolerable.
    Conversational skills are like driving skills. The first few times you drive a car, it seems complicated and you have to think about every little move (turn signals, brakes, gas pedal, observing traffic in order to merge) before you do it. But pretty quickly everything becomes rote and reflex. Same with conversation. After enough exposure to social settings, you come up with shorthand ways to explain things quickly. You learn to draw others out for greater interaction or to pique their interest so that they'll draw you out and ask for more info. You react and interact by rote and reflex. And if a conversational subject is involved, you watch your audience so that you can see what interests them or bores them so that you can tune up your interaction appropriately in the future.

    *************

    I spent 7 years in the Marine Corps, and about 4 of those years I lived in open squadbays (30-60 men in one long open hall, using wall lockers to divide the area into partial cubicles). There was no privacy, which drove me nuts sometimes, but the opportunity to observe people was unparalleled. There was activity at all hours: roving poker games, people lolling about discussing anything and everything, shouting matches, drunken brawls, people coming and going and looking for or offering rides to get fast food or go out drinking, etc. There were distinct pecking orders, social groups, competitions, privileges given or withdrawn according to rank, spoken and unspoken conventions and customs, etc. There were intellectuals, geeks, jocks, hard partiers, etc.

    I probably spent the first year or so just observing and only got to know the few people in my immediate area. But across time I picked up the rhythm of the interactions, moved out more and more into the general society of the barracks, and got to know (and partied with) pretty much everyone at one time or another. At the end I was a senior sergeant in the barracks, responsible for general order and clean-up in the barracks, and interacted with everyone as both a roommate and their immediate superior.

    As a result, I have an encyclopedia of human behavior in my head. I know all the quick come-backs and appropriate (and inappropriate) responses for any challenge. I know how average guys handle just about any big life event, because on long evenings people would sit around in the barracks talking about dating, sex, their families, marriages, divorces, children, deaths in the family, racial issues, childhoods in different parts of the countries and different economic backgrounds, etc. When people are bored, they talk.

    Of course, that was the Marine Corps, and not everything was G-rated. The atmosphere was pretty testosterone-laden and competitive. But after that exposure and experience, it's easy enough for me to observe any new group or environment, note the pecking order and customs, and pick up the flow enough to join in pretty quickly.

    Sometimes I forget that others don't have that same kind of background and experience. I'm surprised when others get tongue-tied saying even simple things or are paranoid about making a wrong impression. But then I remember how tongue-tied and paranoid I was before age 18.

    Both of my wives (past and present) have accused me of being "arrogant." They love(d) that arrogance when I'm dealing with the rest of the world, because I effectively fear nothing and I can stroll with them on my arm confidently into just about any kind of social environment or situation and handle things competently. But during an argument at home, that "arrogance" gets directed at them, and then they say witheringly, "You're so arrogant!" And I respond, "No shit. I'm an ex-Marine. Why wouldn't I be arrogant?"

    There's nothing wrong with arrogance. You just hold your own and don't worry if you ruffle a few feathers along the way. And meantime, in a new group or setting I observe and see what works or doesn't work, what people like or don't like. Eventually I fit in, though it may be rough going at the start when my manners or language don't quite match those of the group.

    But I would just point out that it's not necessary to "get it right" the first time out (or even the tenth time out) with a new group or a new setting. There's always an adjustment period with a new group, it's always a little rocky. But you stick with it, learn how the group operates, and later you use the long-term exposure to smooth over any negative impressions from the initial adjustment period.

    The main thing is to get on in there and participate. If you need to pin down a starting persona with which to project yourself into the group, then put on the "mask" of a friend or family member and say whatever they would say--just to get you over the initial awkwardness and start participating.

    With time and exposure to different groups you get that encyclopedia of behavior in your head and you have easy access to appropriate responses and behaviors; you needn't fear doing something completely inappropriate because you've seen others handle similar situations the same way. With a new group your responses may not be a perfect fit, but at least you can take confidence that they won't be horribly wrong either.

    But I don't see any other way to do it. If you want to connect with people around you, you have to put yourself out there at some point.

    One-on-one communication may seem safer in that you can observe and pre-select individuals with similar interests; but you can waste a lot of time cultivating individuals only to find that the interaction isn't working. Across time I prefer getting my feet wet with groups, finding individual points of contact with multiple people within the group, and then observing the group to continue filling out my encyclopedia of appropriate behavior so that I continue to have that instantaneous sense of what's appropriate and inappropriate behavior in multiple settings.

    Do I ever feel invisible? Maybe once upon a time I did, a few decades ago. But these days, I'm too "arrogant" for that. I put my real self out there using standard social/conversational skills much as a good driver gets himself down the road using good driving skills.

    I grant that I do make some compromises. After all, the conversation can't always be about me and the things I'm interested in. I adjust my expectations according to the social setting, climb out of my head, and seek common ground. But given any topic of conversation, I can be honest and put my own spin on things. I don't feel unduly restricted or inhibited by normal social conventions any more than a driver normally feels restricted or inhibited by the limitations of the car and the road. (And if I do feel the need to go "off-roading" conversationally, I can always seek out a specialized social group that shares a particular interest of mine.)
    Last edited by RDF; 12-21-2007 at 06:54 PM.

  8. #68
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine
    One-on-one communication may seem safer in that you can observe and pre-select individuals with similar interests; but you can waste a lot of time cultivating individuals only to find that the interaction isn't working
    Exactly. This is why I find it odd that some people talk at great length about how "pointless" they find smalltalk. To me, smalltalk is a wonderful opportunity to scope out lots of people at once, so you can figure out who's gonna be worth pursuing later.

    What you say above FineLine made me sit and think... I mean I used to think I was an introvert, and until seeing that I wondered whether I changed from I to E, or whether I was always E but just not too confident. But reading that I see that I was never an introvert... I was always too busy focusing on the other person to be self-conscious, within seconds of someone saying something I found interesting. And I find everything interesting!

    I think this thread has been really illuminating in that it's shown that both E's and I's can feel invisible, but for different reasons...
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Exactly. This is why I find it odd that some people talk at great length about how "pointless" they find smalltalk. To me, smalltalk is a wonderful opportunity to scope out lots of people at once, so you can figure out who's gonna be worth pursuing later.

    What you say above FineLine made me sit and think... I mean I used to think I was an introvert, and until seeing that I wondered whether I changed from I to E, or whether I was always E but just not too confident. But reading that I see that I was never an introvert... I was always too busy focusing on the other person to be self-conscious, within seconds of someone saying something I found interesting. And I find everything interesting!

    I think this thread has been really illuminating in that it's shown that both E's and I's can feel invisible, but for different reasons...
    Yes, I realized that much of the thread thus far is about the invisibility of Extraverts who feel they're not making an adequate personal connection despite their natural social skills. (An invisible Extravert almost sounds like an oxymoron, at least to an Introvert. )

    But there was some Introvert participation as well and I thought I would take the opportunity of MX5's post to dwell on ways for Introverts to not feel so daunted by social situations. And maybe it might provide some insight for Extraverts in some way, too.

    Anyway, it's just my own spin on things.

    Oh yes, and good comment about the usefulness of smalltalk. People think it's empty, but the opposite is true. It's a mutual confidence-building gesture, a way to skate across the surface of lots of subjects and test for points of common interest, and a way to canvass lots of people quickly for later development. In its own way, it's one of the most productive and efficient modes of communication there is. And it's not that difficult to cultivate for even the most shy Introvert. It's quite repetitive and easy once you tune in properly and study the interaction methodically. And at the same time you can personalize it for your own ends, i.e., to find people with interests matching your own.

  10. #70
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Oh yes, and good comment about the usefulness of smalltalk. People think it's empty, but the opposite is true. It's a mutual confidence-building gesture, a way to skate across the surface of lots of subjects and test for points of common interest, and a way to canvass lots of people quickly for later development. In its own way, it's one of the most productive and efficient modes of communication there is. And it's not that difficult to cultivate for even the most shy Introvert. It's quite repetitive and easy once you tune in properly and study the interaction methodically. And at the same time you can personalize it for your own ends, i.e., to find people with interests matching your own.
    SO right! I've never considered small talk to be trivial! it's so interesting to learn about other people and thier experiences and thoughts

    I've always wondered if the people who you have to DRAG small talk out of hate me though when you have to ask someone question after question and get back yes or no answers it's kind of discouraging If it's so easly to develop, why do some people fail so miserably at it?

    *shrug* oh well, whatever, I guess my contributions to this thread are kind of irrelevant anyways since I'm a Sensor and I don't feel invisible!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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