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  1. #41
    Senior Member Sandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I've had 3 children, too. I know it's important to him, so I'm trying to psyche myself up to make it more important to me. I am not a physically disciplined person, and I don't have a lot of energy, but if I knew of a program that worked where I could lose some weight and strengthen my muscles, I would be interested. Not so I could "look good", but so that I would be healthier and probably feel better, too.
    Dancing and long walks work for me. When I was pregnant with my 2nd baby, my soon-to-be-ex-husband TOLD me that if I didn't lose the baby weight, he would take a hatchet to me (he's a sensor). I was livid when he told me that. Even though he "said" he was kidding (ya, right), it hurt like hell.
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  2. #42
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy View Post
    Dancing and long walks work for me. When I was pregnant with my 2nd baby, my soon-to-be-ex-husband TOLD me that if I didn't lose the baby weight, he would take a hatchet to me (he's a sensor). I was livid when he told me that. Even though he "said" he was kidding (ya, right), it hurt like hell.
    I can't tell you how infuriated that makes me.

  3. #43
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I have talked about this with my close friend, an ENTJ. We came to the conclusion that just as we believe we're unnoticed by the sensors, because they're not noticing the parts of us we consider most important, only our physical presences and tangible parts... well, in much the same way, we tend not to notice the tangible parts of other people, and we're always busy looking 'into' them, beyond the material and to the inner substance. Because of this, we don't notice and are not impressed by new haircuts, fashionable clothes, nice cars, things like that, which some people want us to notice, so they believe we're not noticing them, because we're often busy looking hard into parts of them that they're perhaps not aware exist, or at least if they are, they don't put much importance in them.
    I agree with this a lot, but I'm going to take it a bit farther.

    Ns tend to see things different - when you want to be seen as a "N", and people don't, we feel like people aren't noticing us. The same goes in reverse. If a "S" dresses up and does what they think shows something about themselves and it gets ignored, we feel like people aren't noticing us.

    When a T has a great logical conclusion or analysis and we don't get acknowledged, we feel like people are ignoring us. When a F goes out of their way to help or relate to someone and gets rebuffed... When a P tries to drag someone out, throw a party... When a J makes a project plan, finishes a job... When an I does express themselves finally and gets ignored or drowned out... When an E is told to be quiet...

    We are social creatures, afterall. We all identify with our own traits, all want attention... Type may change a few things around but the need lies below that.

  4. #44
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I have talked about this with my close friend, an ENTJ. We came to the conclusion that just as we believe we're unnoticed by the sensors, because they're not noticing the parts of us we consider most important, only our physical presences and tangible parts... well, in much the same way, we tend not to notice the tangible parts of other people, and we're always busy looking 'into' them, beyond the material and to the inner substance. Because of this, we don't notice and are not impressed by new haircuts, fashionable clothes, nice cars, things like that, which some people want us to notice, so they believe we're not noticing them, because we're often busy looking hard into parts of them that they're perhaps not aware exist, or at least if they are, they don't put much importance in them.

    This was a good year or so ago, so I'm not sure how/if my take on that has changed. But it's a definite possibility that N's and S's are, in general, just looking at the 'wrong' parts of each other. We're not noticing the things about each other that the other person wants to be noticed. So we feel ourselves invisible.

    I remember my ESFJ sister once telling me that she always got the impression I didn't give a shit and didn't seem to be really listening when she was talking about her latest home improvement or flower arranging or whatever else, but in fact the whole time, though she was right that I wasn't listening to her in the way she expected, I was actually really intently tuned into the undercurrents that she was virtually unaware of, in her own communication. I was able to demonstrate this to her later, when I made an observation about her general way of operating, and gave examples of things she'd told me in the past that betrayed these patterns to me, and she was like 'Wow, it's like you see right into me, how can you know these things? I never told you those things!'

    But if she'd asked me what her favourite flower/colour was, or she asked me on the phone to describe her hairstyle, I'd have just made with the Gallic shrugs.
    Boy, I can relate to this. And yes, it's true....I don't find the tangible parts terribly important - I don't think they're what constitute ME, or anyone's character for that matter. I mean, I notice the tangible, yes, but I don't focus on it. If anything, I'm completely turned off by people who define themselves by the tangible, and I'll run the other direction as a consequence.

    I don't think I've had the 'invisible' feeling, so much as the feeling that I'm behind a wall, just observing everyone, and I'm unable to 'connect' in a meaningful way to most people. Or what I desire is not what other people want/need. But yeah, it comes down to what is 'meaningful' in my eyes. I throw the word 'connection' around all the time, but it's really the same concept as what's being discussed here....just that I don't feel I really 'connect' to people on a deep level very often, and on the same token, I don't think many want to, or are able to, connect with me on the level I desire. Nothing against them, nothing against me...it just does create a feeling of isolation and aloneness sometimes (aloneness would be when you're surrounded by people who you might interact with superficially, but you still feel completely solitary and alone in the world; loneliness for me would be having nobody around -- or maybe I have the two mixed up!!!!).

    And nothing bores me quicker than hearing someone talk about their interior decorating or home improvement stuff...yawn.... ...so trivial in my mind! I'd much rather know what's going on on a deeper level. But then I kick myself for feeling that way because there's an element of triviality in *everyone's* life - and no doubt I'm into things others find completely trivial.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  5. #45
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    pt you hit the nail on the head as usual. I think the solution is to simply listen to people more, pay attention to what they seem to feel is important, not what we think ought to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn View Post
    And nothing bores me quicker than hearing someone talk about their interior decorating or home improvement stuff...yawn.... ...so trivial in my mind! I'd much rather know what's going on on a deeper level.
    Well y'know casca I would've said the same thing not so long ago. But having made an effort to take an interest in my sister's life, the things like that which are important to her, I've gained a greater insight into why those things are important - and that gives me a better window into the intangible parts of her. And though it sounds so obvious, it took me the longest time to realize that it's all valid, y'know? It's totally not cricket for me to come along and say to a person that they way they choose to define themselves is inferior to the way I define myself or less valid than the way I define them.

    Nobody is a greater authority on who they are than the person themselves. This is the challenging part of human interactions: to truly recognize and accept a person for who they are. Not grudgingly, not with mental footnotes, not with provisos or quid pro quos, and not in a bigoted, prejudiced way where we say we understand them but just consider ourselves better. It's truly seeing each and every person as the individual they are, and loving them for it.
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  6. #46
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Yah, I know. I try. I'm not quite there yet. I'm getting MUCH better than I used to be, and it's through getting to know an ISFJ woman at work, who is becoming a good friend. She loves to talk about her interior decorating....and I can appreciate it because I myself like making my home pretty (I just don't talk about it!! :-), and I care for her and I like seeing her getting all excited about it, and it makes her happy, but I still can't help it...I totally zone out inwardly after a little while.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  7. #47
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    It's truly seeing each and every person as the individual they are, and loving them for it.
    Yup, that's the "secret". Everytime we say "I don't like... (x)"... be it personality, be it something tangible, we need to remember that the majority of the population also has no interest in your things or who you have either. If you do things like this, fine, but don't expect anyone else to care about your stuff either. We can all either choose to try to reach across, or not to... but there it is.

    You don't have to love them. Just realise they aren't different. The crap you are interested in isn't any more interesting. Ego busting, but you're doing the same to them.

  8. #48
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Yup, that's the "secret". Everytime we say "I don't like... (x)"... be it personality, be it something tangible, we need to remember that the majority of the population also has no interest in your things or who you have either. If you do things like this, fine, but don't expect anyone else to care about your stuff either. We can all either choose to try to reach across, or not to... but there it is.

    You don't have to love them. Just realise they aren't different. The crap you are interested in isn't any more interesting. Ego busting, but you're doing the same to them.
    I agree. I didn't mean love as in the individual, personal kinda love. I just meant as in 'value them as a fellow human', as opposed to 'deride and dismiss them as a worthless idiot'.

    Although personally, when I get to know someone properly - almost anyone - I generally do love them anyway. In the individual sense. I'm learning as time goes on that I have an unusual capacity to really appreciate so many different things, and each time I do, it makes me a richer person as I incorporate their perceptions into my own knowledge banks.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  9. #49
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Well, I do agree with all of that. Really, I do!

    I also added this to my initial post (before anyone responded) --

    But then I kick myself for feeling that way because there's an element of triviality in *everyone's* life - and no doubt I'm into things others find completely trivial.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

    My Photography and Watercolor Fine Art Prints!!! Cascade Colors Fine Art Prints
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  10. #50
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    So.... why did this thread grind to a halt?

    I was really enjoying discovering that other people are as miserable as me!!

    Ahem...
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

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