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  1. #31
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by targo View Post
    wow this is good reading.

    do you think though that 'N's put on an 'air' about themselves? Do you think that there is a wall that they have built up in order to bring protection and keep themselves away? (this is probably type specific though, I shouldn't generalize all N's in here) I mean I live with another N and still I don't think I am noticed in here... that has got to be just a personal observation though.
    I have talked about this with my close friend, an ENTJ. We came to the conclusion that just as we believe we're unnoticed by the sensors, because they're not noticing the parts of us we consider most important, only our physical presences and tangible parts... well, in much the same way, we tend not to notice the tangible parts of other people, and we're always busy looking 'into' them, beyond the material and to the inner substance. Because of this, we don't notice and are not impressed by new haircuts, fashionable clothes, nice cars, things like that, which some people want us to notice, so they believe we're not noticing them, because we're often busy looking hard into parts of them that they're perhaps not aware exist, or at least if they are, they don't put much importance in them.

    This was a good year or so ago, so I'm not sure how/if my take on that has changed. But it's a definite possibility that N's and S's are, in general, just looking at the 'wrong' parts of each other. We're not noticing the things about each other that the other person wants to be noticed. So we feel ourselves invisible.

    I remember my ESFJ sister once telling me that she always got the impression I didn't give a shit and didn't seem to be really listening when she was talking about her latest home improvement or flower arranging or whatever else, but in fact the whole time, though she was right that I wasn't listening to her in the way she expected, I was actually really intently tuned into the undercurrents that she was virtually unaware of, in her own communication. I was able to demonstrate this to her later, when I made an observation about her general way of operating, and gave examples of things she'd told me in the past that betrayed these patterns to me, and she was like 'Wow, it's like you see right into me, how can you know these things? I never told you those things!'

    But if she'd asked me what her favourite flower/colour was, or she asked me on the phone to describe her hairstyle, I'd have just made with the Gallic shrugs.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  2. #32
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    that reminds me of the time I went on a date with an intp- I was dressed very nicely since I wanted to impress him- and an estj friend had commented on the fact that any guy should be impressed!

    unfortunatly my date didn't notice I had to wonder if it would have made a difference if I'd shown up wearing a pair of overalls and a flannel shirt!

    very true Substitute- different things are noticed by different types
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  3. #33
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    I want to add something here --

    My thread about me "not getting" what Ss get out of life and really wanting to understand it applies. If I didn't have my mother and my sister to point things out to me, I'd be so focused on the minutiae of subtle communication that a whole bunch of worth-while and interesting things would go blasting right by me. Ss don't suffer from "immaterial-iality" the same way as Ns.

    I can feel alone or invisible no matter how many conversations I've had in the course of day. My shop foreman used to send me out to wangle with the higher ups sometimes because he knew I could be relied on to socialize properly and perhaps get more than what was expected, but conversely, he'd shake a warning finger at me that I was to be back by X-time because there was a real danger of me being tagged and drawn into three or four dialogues en route. I *do* know everybody usually because I deem 99% of the people I meet to be interesting or worthwhile, but I still don't feel any more tangible. I remember writing in my journal over the years that people could physically lay hold of me and I would feel as if it was not my body. I could hear my voice and their's and know we were engaged in something, yet the immaterial sensation remained a constant. I just chalked it up to PTSD or my being "spacey".

    I admire - nay, ENVY -- the Senser capacity to be in the moment, to be in their skin. I've been mistaken for S at times because of my capacity to envision or imagine vividly and articulate those things, but when it comes down to grounding those vivid concepts in the real, I flounder, exposing my incredible bankruptcy in S. My S friends make me feel more "real" and less phantom. My mother said she doesn't get the "invisibility" thing herself, but that she's pleased to have N-children because it's broadened her horizons and made her more fanciful.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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  4. #34
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    makes me wonder if ptsd is different between sensors and intuitives... I wasn't numb to sensations or my surroundings- the littlest thing could trigger unplesant memories- I was just so emotionally out of it that I could have seen my best friend get hit by a truck and I don't think I could have reacted properly... sorry though
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  5. #35
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    I *do* know everybody usually because I deem 99% of the people I meet to be interesting or worthwhile, but I still don't feel any more tangible.
    Yes, I'm not snobbish or elitist, I believe everyone has something in them I can learn from, EVERYONE, and I take people as they are and without prejudice.

    I remember writing in my journal over the years that people could physically lay hold of me and I would feel as if it was not my body. I could hear my voice and their's and know we were engaged in something, yet the immaterial sensation remained a constant. I just chalked it up to PTSD or my being "spacey".

    I admire - nay, ENVY -- the Senser capacity to be in the moment, to be in their skin. I've been mistaken for S at times because of my capacity to envision or imagine vividly and articulate those things, but when it comes down to grounding those vivid concepts in the real, I flounder, exposing my incredible bankruptcy in S.
    Yes, I relate to that 100%. Bin-fucking-go. Especially the bold part.

    My S friends make me feel more "real" and less phantom. My mother said she doesn't get the "invisibility" thing herself, but that she's pleased to have N-children because it's broadened her horizons and made her more fanciful.
    Unfortunately, my mother has no similar appreciation for the potential of intuition (and no actual belief it exists), and I'm yet to find a way to tune into S friends' "real-ness" in order to make myself less, as you say, phantom. It's actually fellow N's that make me feel that way. I tend to find that if I can be in the presence of a few strong intuitives for a while, it's like I suddenly become solid and real, and even experience short bursts of Se where I become aware of the physical environment. Sometimes it makes me feel dizzy because I suddenly realize how high a ceiling is that I've sat under a million times and not noticed, or how wide a space is that I've walked across a dozen times. Or I suddenly get a shocking sense of perspective of like, the distance from my head to the ground or I hold my hand up to my face and move it back and forth and laugh because it just seems so ...real for the moment.

    Then the moment passes, and I'm back to being a phantom again!

    I've seen episodes of Star Trek where a character gets, I dunno, stuck in some different band or frequency of reality through say, a transporter accident, and they're there but nobody can see them. Then they find something to plug into as it were, or some way of communicating across the frequencies, and gradually their body becomes solid rather than transparent/translucent. I've sometimes felt like plugging into other N's, especially ENTJ's with me (for some reason), has that effect on me.

    I don't think it's because I've been able to actually cross over to the sensate plain. I think it's more that we've both gone wholly onto the intuitive, which is the one where we're really the most real. We can see each other for real and communicate without all the sensate 'static' in the way, and it's brilliant.

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I was just so emotionally out of it that I could have seen my best friend get hit by a truck and I don't think I could have reacted properly...
    Yes that's me too. I'm kinda out of it both on the sensate and feeling plains - great!
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  6. #36
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I have talked about this with my close friend, an ENTJ. We came to the conclusion that just as we believe we're unnoticed by the sensors, because they're not noticing the parts of us we consider most important, only our physical presences and tangible parts... well, in much the same way, we tend not to notice the tangible parts of other people, and we're always busy looking 'into' them, beyond the material and to the inner substance. Because of this, we don't notice and are not impressed by new haircuts, fashionable clothes, nice cars, things like that, which some people want us to notice, so they believe we're not noticing them, because we're often busy looking hard into parts of them that they're perhaps not aware exist, or at least if they are, they don't put much importance in them.

    This was a good year or so ago, so I'm not sure how/if my take on that has changed. But it's a definite possibility that N's and S's are, in general, just looking at the 'wrong' parts of each other. We're not noticing the things about each other that the other person wants to be noticed.
    ...
    I agree with you entirely. That's what it is! We're not noticing what the other type thinks is important to notice! (I wonder if this new insight is going to help me get along better with my ISTP husband.) I will have to pay more attention to this.

    The word "important" carries a lot of weight in this concept though. Like, my husband wishes I still weighed 120 pounds like I did when we were married. Well, guess what?! I am never going to look like that ever again. I don't think it's physically possible! To me the inner person is so much more important than what I look like. What does it matter if I can wear a size 5 if I'm mean, vindictive and manipulative? I'd rather spend my energy being a better person than trying to squeeze into some jeans. I really don't get the point. If I really tried hard, I could probably get down to about 135, but that's it.

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    that reminds me of the time I went on a date with an intp- I was dressed very nicely since I wanted to impress him- and an estj friend had commented on the fact that any guy should be impressed!

    unfortunately my date didn't notice I had to wonder if it would have made a difference if I'd shown up wearing a pair of overalls and a flannel shirt!
    That's too bad. I'm sure he did notice, but it didn't register on his tongue.

  7. #37
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    makes me wonder if ptsd is different between sensors and intuitives... I wasn't numb to sensations or my surroundings- the littlest thing could trigger unplesant memories- I was just so emotionally out of it that I could have seen my best friend get hit by a truck and I don't think I could have reacted properly... sorry though
    I did something similar, where I would overload really quickly, and be unable to filter out bad things. Unfortunately, I already have a great deal of difficulty filtering out bad things even when I'm firing on all cylinders, so the PTSD was a terrible undermining of an already weak spot so I stayed blitzed out 24/7 with occasional emergences into a concrete feeling that I actually existed or that I could respond without my nervous system attempting to crash.

    Whatever...


    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Yes, I'm not snobbish or elitist, I believe everyone has something in them I can learn from, EVERYONE, and I take people as they are and without prejudice.
    People are just too dratted interesting, you know! Why just eat the potatoes plain when you can sprinkle gummi bears in them too!


    Yes, I relate to that 100%. Bin-fucking-go. Especially the bold part.
    So glad to know it's not just me.


    Unfortunately, my mother has no similar appreciation for the potential of intuition (and no actual belief it exists), and I'm yet to find a way to tune into S friends' "real-ness" in order to make myself less, as you say, phantom. It's actually fellow N's that make me feel that way. I tend to find that if I can be in the presence of a few strong intuitives for a while, it's like I suddenly become solid and real, and even experience short bursts of Se where I become aware of the physical environment. Sometimes it makes me feel dizzy because I suddenly realize how high a ceiling is that I've sat under a million times and not noticed, or how wide a space is that I've walked across a dozen times. Or I suddenly get a shocking sense of perspective of like, the distance from my head to the ground or I hold my hand up to my face and move it back and forth and laugh because it just seems so ...real for the moment.

    Then the moment passes, and I'm back to being a phantom again!
    VERY interesting! And I can relate to it as well. The Ns make me feel like I'm not crazy and that my ideas are appreciated on a cellular instinctive level, while the Ss (I tend to know some pretty avant-garde/outside the box Ss) make me feel like I'm not going to blow away in a stiff wind. When I get too much "up in my head", I can get like a cat who's gone up a tree and can't figure out how to get back down. Sometimes, it takes an S with a ladder and their non-negotiable "reality hands" to retrieve me. Perhaps this is more an NF problem than an NT one? My ENTJ likes to be acknowledged in an N way, and she doesn't seem to require an S because her own S works well. I think a lot of NTs I know have been able to access their latent S better than the NFs.


    I don't think it's because I've been able to actually cross over to the sensate plain. I think it's more that we've both gone wholly onto the intuitive, which is the one where we're really the most real. We can see each other for real and communicate without all the sensate 'static' in the way, and it's brilliant.
    Very very true.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  8. #38
    Senior Member Sandy's Avatar
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    Default Breaking for station identification...

    I'm going to side-track here...

    For those who have experienced PTSD, please check out EMDR. The relief that it gave for me was quite unbelievable (and quick, too!)
    3-sessions and I was well! I highly recommend it.

    Now carry on...
    -Sandy
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    There is truth... in the red letters

  9. #39
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Do I remember right that your husband is also ISTP? Mine is too and it seems that looks are quite important for these sensors. I weighed somewhat less when we got married and after having 3 babies... well, you can imagine. I’m not exactly a model. My ISTP keeps on giving me comments about how people with few extra pounds (or a bit more than few pounds) have lack of self-control and people just need to eat less if they want to lose weight. He really appreciates good looks and keeps on noticing the thin & the beautiful. I do think the looks are more important to sensors because they really sense those things better than intuitive people.

    About this invisibility thing:
    It really might be the N-thing. I have thought a lot lately about the thing that I really haven't been connected to the world in a sensing way. I have always been very much "in clouds" by myself. I always been very much extrovert and talking to people but in a way I have never been there in that place. I have always been more dreaming about the future or planning the future. I've always been somehow in my own mind without noticing what people really react on me or think about my personality. I never really cared what they thought of me and what my impact was on them until recently. One exception here is that I have always sensed people's feelings and moods but never thought what my impact is on them. So I have always felt the interaction was really one way information flowing from a person to me like I really didn't exist.

    So I have felt transparent. I’m there but I’m not there at the same time. I interact with people but I do not really connect (except couple of times). I have impact on people but I don't notice that I do.

    Weird isn’t it?
    Last edited by alcea rosea; 02-10-2008 at 11:35 AM.

  10. #40
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcearos View Post
    Do I remember right that your husband is also ISTP? Mine is too and it seems that looks are quite important for these sensors. I weighed somewhat less when we got married and after having 3 babies... well, you can imagine. I’m not exactly a model. My ISTP keeps on giving me comments about how people with few extra pounds (or a bit more than few pounds) have lack of self-control and people just need to eat less if they want to lose weight. He really appreciates good looks and keeps on noticing the thin & the beautiful. I do think the looks are more important to sensors because they really sense those things better than intuitive people.
    ...
    I've had 3 children, too. I know it's important to him, so I'm trying to psyche myself up to make it more important to me. I am not a physically disciplined person, and I don't have a lot of energy, but if I knew of a program that worked where I could lose some weight and strengthen my muscles, I would be interested. Not so I could "look good", but so that I would be healthier and probably feel better, too.

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