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Do you ever..... ??? (insecurities revealed)

Sandy

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I've had 3 children, too. I know it's important to him, so I'm trying to psyche myself up to make it more important to me. I am not a physically disciplined person, and I don't have a lot of energy, but if I knew of a program that worked where I could lose some weight and strengthen my muscles, I would be interested. Not so I could "look good", but so that I would be healthier and probably feel better, too.

Dancing and long walks work for me. When I was pregnant with my 2nd baby, my soon-to-be-ex-husband TOLD me that if I didn't lose the baby weight, he would take a hatchet to me (he's a sensor). I was livid when he told me that. :cry: Even though he "said" he was kidding (ya, right), it hurt like hell.
 

INTJMom

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Dancing and long walks work for me. When I was pregnant with my 2nd baby, my soon-to-be-ex-husband TOLD me that if I didn't lose the baby weight, he would take a hatchet to me (he's a sensor). I was livid when he told me that. :cry: Even though he "said" he was kidding (ya, right), it hurt like hell.
I can't tell you how infuriated that makes me. :ng_mad::mad:
 

ptgatsby

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I have talked about this with my close friend, an ENTJ. We came to the conclusion that just as we believe we're unnoticed by the sensors, because they're not noticing the parts of us we consider most important, only our physical presences and tangible parts... well, in much the same way, we tend not to notice the tangible parts of other people, and we're always busy looking 'into' them, beyond the material and to the inner substance. Because of this, we don't notice and are not impressed by new haircuts, fashionable clothes, nice cars, things like that, which some people want us to notice, so they believe we're not noticing them, because we're often busy looking hard into parts of them that they're perhaps not aware exist, or at least if they are, they don't put much importance in them.

I agree with this a lot, but I'm going to take it a bit farther.

Ns tend to see things different - when you want to be seen as a "N", and people don't, we feel like people aren't noticing us. The same goes in reverse. If a "S" dresses up and does what they think shows something about themselves and it gets ignored, we feel like people aren't noticing us.

When a T has a great logical conclusion or analysis and we don't get acknowledged, we feel like people are ignoring us. When a F goes out of their way to help or relate to someone and gets rebuffed... When a P tries to drag someone out, throw a party... When a J makes a project plan, finishes a job... When an I does express themselves finally and gets ignored or drowned out... When an E is told to be quiet...

We are social creatures, afterall. We all identify with our own traits, all want attention... Type may change a few things around but the need lies below that.
 

cascadeco

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I have talked about this with my close friend, an ENTJ. We came to the conclusion that just as we believe we're unnoticed by the sensors, because they're not noticing the parts of us we consider most important, only our physical presences and tangible parts... well, in much the same way, we tend not to notice the tangible parts of other people, and we're always busy looking 'into' them, beyond the material and to the inner substance. Because of this, we don't notice and are not impressed by new haircuts, fashionable clothes, nice cars, things like that, which some people want us to notice, so they believe we're not noticing them, because we're often busy looking hard into parts of them that they're perhaps not aware exist, or at least if they are, they don't put much importance in them.

This was a good year or so ago, so I'm not sure how/if my take on that has changed. But it's a definite possibility that N's and S's are, in general, just looking at the 'wrong' parts of each other. We're not noticing the things about each other that the other person wants to be noticed. So we feel ourselves invisible.

I remember my ESFJ sister once telling me that she always got the impression I didn't give a shit and didn't seem to be really listening when she was talking about her latest home improvement or flower arranging or whatever else, but in fact the whole time, though she was right that I wasn't listening to her in the way she expected, I was actually really intently tuned into the undercurrents that she was virtually unaware of, in her own communication. I was able to demonstrate this to her later, when I made an observation about her general way of operating, and gave examples of things she'd told me in the past that betrayed these patterns to me, and she was like 'Wow, it's like you see right into me, how can you know these things? I never told you those things!'

But if she'd asked me what her favourite flower/colour was, or she asked me on the phone to describe her hairstyle, I'd have just made with the Gallic shrugs.

Boy, I can relate to this. And yes, it's true....I don't find the tangible parts terribly important - I don't think they're what constitute ME, or anyone's character for that matter. I mean, I notice the tangible, yes, but I don't focus on it. If anything, I'm completely turned off by people who define themselves by the tangible, and I'll run the other direction as a consequence.

I don't think I've had the 'invisible' feeling, so much as the feeling that I'm behind a wall, just observing everyone, and I'm unable to 'connect' in a meaningful way to most people. Or what I desire is not what other people want/need. But yeah, it comes down to what is 'meaningful' in my eyes. I throw the word 'connection' around all the time, but it's really the same concept as what's being discussed here....just that I don't feel I really 'connect' to people on a deep level very often, and on the same token, I don't think many want to, or are able to, connect with me on the level I desire. Nothing against them, nothing against me...it just does create a feeling of isolation and aloneness sometimes (aloneness would be when you're surrounded by people who you might interact with superficially, but you still feel completely solitary and alone in the world; loneliness for me would be having nobody around -- or maybe I have the two mixed up!!!!).

And nothing bores me quicker than hearing someone talk about their interior decorating or home improvement stuff...yawn....:) ...so trivial in my mind! I'd much rather know what's going on on a deeper level. But then I kick myself for feeling that way because there's an element of triviality in *everyone's* life - and no doubt I'm into things others find completely trivial.
 

substitute

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pt you hit the nail on the head as usual. I think the solution is to simply listen to people more, pay attention to what they seem to feel is important, not what we think ought to be.

And nothing bores me quicker than hearing someone talk about their interior decorating or home improvement stuff...yawn....:) ...so trivial in my mind! I'd much rather know what's going on on a deeper level.

Well y'know casca I would've said the same thing not so long ago. But having made an effort to take an interest in my sister's life, the things like that which are important to her, I've gained a greater insight into why those things are important - and that gives me a better window into the intangible parts of her. And though it sounds so obvious, it took me the longest time to realize that it's all valid, y'know? It's totally not cricket for me to come along and say to a person that they way they choose to define themselves is inferior to the way I define myself or less valid than the way I define them.

Nobody is a greater authority on who they are than the person themselves. This is the challenging part of human interactions: to truly recognize and accept a person for who they are. Not grudgingly, not with mental footnotes, not with provisos or quid pro quos, and not in a bigoted, prejudiced way where we say we understand them but just consider ourselves better. It's truly seeing each and every person as the individual they are, and loving them for it.
 

cascadeco

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Yah, I know. I try. :) I'm not quite there yet. I'm getting MUCH better than I used to be, and it's through getting to know an ISFJ woman at work, who is becoming a good friend. She loves to talk about her interior decorating....and I can appreciate it because I myself like making my home pretty (I just don't talk about it!! :), and I care for her and I like seeing her getting all excited about it, and it makes her happy, but I still can't help it...I totally zone out inwardly after a little while.
 

ptgatsby

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It's truly seeing each and every person as the individual they are, and loving them for it.

Yup, that's the "secret". Everytime we say "I don't like... (x)"... be it personality, be it something tangible, we need to remember that the majority of the population also has no interest in your things or who you have either. If you do things like this, fine, but don't expect anyone else to care about your stuff either. We can all either choose to try to reach across, or not to... but there it is.

You don't have to love them. Just realise they aren't different. The crap you are interested in isn't any more interesting. Ego busting, but you're doing the same to them.
 

substitute

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Yup, that's the "secret". Everytime we say "I don't like... (x)"... be it personality, be it something tangible, we need to remember that the majority of the population also has no interest in your things or who you have either. If you do things like this, fine, but don't expect anyone else to care about your stuff either. We can all either choose to try to reach across, or not to... but there it is.

You don't have to love them. Just realise they aren't different. The crap you are interested in isn't any more interesting. Ego busting, but you're doing the same to them.

I agree. I didn't mean love as in the individual, personal kinda love. I just meant as in 'value them as a fellow human', as opposed to 'deride and dismiss them as a worthless idiot'. :)

Although personally, when I get to know someone properly - almost anyone - I generally do love them anyway. In the individual sense. I'm learning as time goes on that I have an unusual capacity to really appreciate so many different things, and each time I do, it makes me a richer person as I incorporate their perceptions into my own knowledge banks.
 

cascadeco

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Well, I do agree with all of that. Really, I do!

I also added this to my initial post (before anyone responded) --

But then I kick myself for feeling that way because there's an element of triviality in *everyone's* life - and no doubt I'm into things others find completely trivial.
 

substitute

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So.... why did this thread grind to a halt? :huh:

I was really enjoying discovering that other people are as miserable as me!!

Ahem...
 

Domino

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When I first left automotive and went into diesel, I went through another serious bout of shakiness. I was going from something I'd gotten used to, straight into an area that not only had no other women (I'd been in company of several women as an auto mechanic) but also an area where the standards were more exacting, the machines exponentially bigger, and I knew no one except my shop foreman and one really nice guy that I'd always chatted with before when I waited for my robotics classes nearby.

I was having a lot of trouble getting my groove back. One day, my partner, Danny, was out sick and I was left to confront this enormous Detroit engine sitting mostly in parts on the table where he and I had been tearing it down. I had to drive the pistons back in, reinstall the valves, get the valve head back on. What freaked me out was the head-bolt torque.

I had to pull 175 ft-lbs on each bolt. I weighed 105. I was going to go down in flames, I just knew it. My foreman handed me a torque wrench the length of my arm, said he wasn't sure how I was going to get this done, but that I had to, sink or swim.

So I braced one foot on the engine and leaned back, like I was pulling an oar. 25 ft-lbs, all bolts. 50 ft-lbs, all bolts. 75 ft-lbs, all bolts... I felt like I was dying. But I got those bolts torqued to 175. I knew I had to do it or that I would never be able to feel confident in myself again. Being a mechanic was a nightmare for my self-esteem. Never knowing what was next, being put on the spot, being cat-called.
 

substitute

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Never knowing what was next, being put on the spot, being cat-called.

Sounds like a dream come true to me! I live for such situations!

But wow, I'm so impressed by your dedication and just the chutzpah it took to even walk into that class, never mind go through all that.

I can imagine many women in the mechanics industry, and also computing, would tend to feel either invisible or just all too visible, for all the wrong reasons!!
 

GZA

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I never feel invisible, more like I don't exist in the physical world, and thats mostly due to introversion, I guess. Its not a bads thing really, its more like I just lack physical senses, haha.

I probably have had that "invisible" feeling many times in my life... when you have something to say but no one wants to listen, when you think people see parts of you that are so insignificant yet seem so real to them, and totally miss your real character.
 

Domino

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Sounds like a dream come true to me! I live for such situations!

What I would have given to have the NTP unflappability at that time. I was a steady-going ball of nerves!


But wow, I'm so impressed by your dedication and just the chutzpah it took to even walk into that class, never mind go through all that.

I almost didn't walk in! I had to stand there for minutes on end breathing deeply. I kept hearing my foreman's speech in my mind: "Now Pink, you know what to expect. You're going to have to fight for your space. I give you permission to take action. But if things get to be too much, you give me a holler."

I have no idea what compelled me to keep at it except that I can't STAND being beaten, not like that, not in an unfair fight. I was willing to take on the whole garage if I had to. I couldn't do that now. The very thought wears me out. My sister was down in the caves of the welding labs, getting the same treatment. She had to grab a dude by the crotch to get him to let go of her.

Chutzpah! lol :D I love that word! In my case, it translated to "youthful stupidity/invincibility". haha!


I can imagine many women in the mechanics industry, and also computing, would tend to feel either invisible or just all too visible, for all the wrong reasons!!

That is EXACTLY it. I was nuts to pursue my automotive career, but I couldn't stop. I wanted what was mine and that was that. I wasn't going to be drummed out by a bunch of surly rednecks playing grab-ass with me or asking me when I was "going to get knocked up."

You don't say that garbage that to an ENFJ. That's inviting "lock and load" nuclear fall-out. Being sick has taken a lot of that fight out of me. I don't know how I feel about that. :(
 

miss fortune

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Glad that you showed them that you can do everything as well as or better than they can! :) It sucks when everyone expects for you to fail something! :hug:
 

Domino

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Glad that you showed them that you can do everything as well as or better than they can! :)

I remember one day, I was standing with a chain belt that weighed twice as much as me and the 10 ton hoist. The guys had dropped what they were doing to circle up on me and stare and catcall. I started shaking because I was so angry and upset. One of the guys sat on the edge of a metal table, smirking, telling me "Well, go ahead. Do it. Or can't you." I told him to go f- himself. He tutted me about my language. I dropped the belt and a fight erupted. My foreman must have been watching me from across the garage because he came plunging in, told everyone to clear off. He was an INFJ, frequently looked as lost as I did on practical matters, reminded me of my dad only Mr. L actually gave a damn about me, unlike my father.

I got that stupid belt around the International's drum brakes and moved it without a problem.

What was I thinking.



It sucks when everyone expects for you to fail something! :hug:

Has that ever happened to you? :( Do you have story? You seem so invincible to me...
 

Mempy

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I remember one day, I was standing with a chain belt that weighed twice as much as me and the 10 ton hoist. The guys had dropped what they were doing to circle up on me and stare and catcall. I started shaking because I was so angry and upset. One of the guys sat on the edge of a metal table, smirking, telling me "Well, go ahead. Do it. Or can't you." I told him to go f- himself. He tutted me about my language. I dropped the belt and a fight erupted. My foreman must have been watching me from across the garage because he came plunging in, told everyone to clear off. He was an INFJ, frequently looked as lost as I did on practical matters, reminded me of my dad only Mr. L actually gave a damn about me, unlike my father.

I got that stupid belt around the International's drum brakes and moved it without a problem.

What was I thinking.

:wubbie:


Although personally, when I get to know someone properly - almost anyone - I generally do love them anyway. In the individual sense. I'm learning as time goes on that I have an unusual capacity to really appreciate so many different things, and each time I do, it makes me a richer person as I incorporate their perceptions into my own knowledge banks.

That's something nice to hear. I'm often the same way. That's not to say there aren't people out there I severely dislike, but I know what you mean about the capacity to truly appreciate a lot about people, most of the time.

Are we talking about insecurities here? I'm so insecure about what I'm worth sometimes. If I am funny, cool, talkative, intelligent, wise and just generally good enough. If I'm worthy. It is something I will probably always, always have to fight myself over.
 

autumn

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Yes, I usually do. I wonder if it's because I have no avatar.

Seriously, though, I think substitute said some very insightful things on the first page of this topic. Becoming "uninvisible" and growing closer to people requires revealing a certain amount of oneself, and if a person has had their capacity to trust injured or has been disregarded in the past after earnestly revealing something very important to them, they will of course be more hesitant to do it in the future. And yes, when you express yourself, you may be misunderstood, and misunderstanding is not the kind of communication that draws people closer.

I think there is so much to each person, and what we see of most people every day doesn't begin to give us a look at all their richness. It is truly a treasure to really get to know someone who is good and special to you, and to give them the opportunity to relate likewise to you.
 
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Siúil a Rúin

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go through life just feeling invisible? Like people only see your smile or your face but that they never see you? Never see who is behind the 'mask'. It seems like people are so busy running that they never stop to listen or to hear what you're saying. As of late I just feel that I am invisible. Do you think it's society as a whole that walks through life like that? Do you think it's a predisposed sort of thing for specific MBTI types? Or do you just think it's a case by case situation?
:hug:

And targo you are such sparkly joy. It is flabbergasting that you could be overlooked. Yes, I have often felt invisible. I have to keep my insecurities in check because i also fear rejection a lot of the time. I especially fear being unaware I am being rejected or something.
 
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