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  1. #31
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Oh... did I start that argument?
    I don't know, but "she started it!" didn't work in elementary school and it still doesn't work.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  2. #32
    Senior Member lazyhappy's Avatar
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    depends on the part of the constitution... litrally if refering to the freedom of speech thing... though my pacifist hippieness doesn't lke the right to bare arms and junk like that in the constitution. i don't quite know all the things in it, but i know some rules are stupid and some arn't on many cases, and all rules have a "what if-" side which i don't feel like getting into

  3. #33
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    The United States Constitution and its amendments should be read with informed and deliberate contemplation of original meaning.

    For all other matters, see Article V.

    The question having been answered, mods: You have the right to close this thread.

  4. #34
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I'm SO not going to comment on the "who started it" thing!

    I'll give you another answer here as well in the spirit of fluffy goodwill!

    Have you ever read a 19th century etiquette book? Some of the rules in it are rather outdated and really don't fit with the present time, but are we going to throw the book out the window and write ettiquette off as being antiquated? I hope not!

    I see the Constitution the same way- old, but the basic ideas are still important today!

    yes- simple- but sometimes simple is best!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  5. #35
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't know, but "she started it!" didn't work in elementary school and it still doesn't work.
    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I'm SO not going to comment on the "who started it" thing!
    It doesn't matter who started it. I understand that. But before another person starts in on me (I'm not accusing you, Ivy, you probably never would do that to anyone, but as a preemptive measure for anyone who tried to hop on the bandwagon) I thought I'd make sure everyone had a firm understanding of what went on. I was actually hoping you, or anyone who read that would go back and read the whole interchange in effort to find out 'who actually did start it?' though my real incentive was to have everyone educated on the actual transpiration rather than being fixated on a few rude comments I made.
    I'll give you another answer here as well in the spirit of fluffy goodwill!

    Have you ever read a 19th century etiquette book? Some of the rules in it are rather outdated and really don't fit with the present time, but are we going to throw the book out the window and write ettiquette off as being antiquated? I hope not!
    Well I hope so.

    Etiquette, to me, seems like nothing more than niceties imposed by custom rather than actual honest feelings. If you appreciate someone's presence, you let them know -- why shouldn't we be able to do just the opposite? 'Because it makes people feel bad' is, I'm sure going to be what it boils down to, but my rebuttal there is 'Well it makes me feel bad having an annoying person around. I'm not going to MAKE them leave, but I'll make sure they know that I don't want them where I am.'

    I see the Constitution the same way- old, but the basic ideas are still important today!
    Fair enough, but the constitution serves a vastly different purpose. The analogy can only extend insofar as the situations are the same. If the document leaves room for corruption (this one does) then something needs to be done. Glad to know the founding fathers had the foresight to include the elastic clause, but unfortunately even with it the constitution is pretty rigid.

    As it should be. If its foundation were infirm, then unless a collective nationwide vote were instated (instead of a republic like we have now) those people in charge would have a bit too much power -- they could jimmy-rig the document so it dictated that those in charge remain in charge until they say otherwise. The establishment might end up either destroying itself or growing to the point where it would match the chaos of anarchy, or anywhere in between.

    yes- simple- but sometimes simple is best!
    Damn right, if it gets the job done.
    we fukin won boys

  6. #36
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    goodwill to everyone else- you SO aren't getting off the hook that easily Nocap!

    being rude to innocent farm girls is a horrible thing to do

    and I noticed how you claimed that you weren't pointing fingers and then pointed anyways.....
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  7. #37
    Oberon
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    Interpretation of the constitution as a "living document" has enabled lawmakers to almost do whatever they want in terms of federal legislation, which is manifestly not a proper use of the document for its intended purpose.

    Case in point: The commerce clause in Article I. The Founders specifically limited the authority of federal legislation to the realm of interstate and international trade, the idea being that intra-state matters were properly under the authority of state governments, and federal authority should not apply. Yet today if you grow pot in your backyard, roll some of it into a doob in your kitchen, and smoke it on your back porch, you can be raided by the DEA and prosecuted under federal law... despite the fact that the cannabis in question never left the county, let alone the state.

    The justification for this is tenuous to the point of absurdity, and yet it stands. In my eyes that represents a prima facie failure of our legislators to recognize and abide by the plain meaning of a very important part of the constitution.

    To my mind, if you want to change what the constitution means so as to make it more applicable to the current times, amend it. There's a process for that. It's a difficult and time-consuming process, it's true, but it was made that way on purpose and for good reason.

  8. #38
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    It doesn't matter who started it. I understand that. But before another person starts in on me (I'm not accusing you, Ivy, you probably never would do that to anyone, but as a preemptive measure for anyone who tried to hop on the bandwagon) I thought I'd make sure everyone had a firm understanding of what went on. I was actually hoping you, or anyone who read that would go back and read the whole interchange in effort to find out 'who actually did start it?' though my real incentive was to have everyone educated on the actual transpiration rather than being fixated on a few rude comments I made.
    In case I didn't make it clear, I wasn't fixating on your comments, but the timbre of the conversation from several participants. Which is why there was a general elbowing rather than a Nocapszy-specific one. And which is also why it doesn't really matter who started it.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  9. #39
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    very very true- over the past 100 years the commerce clause has come to embrace everything except for carrying a gun onto school property (US v Lopez) and whether or not you can sue your rapist (US v Morrison)

    kind of creepy how things can change to accomodate what the courts want for it to accomodate...

    Makes you wonder at times what the founding fathers would do if they were suddenly brought back to life! On the other hand, some of the frameworks still are in place fairly well (like election rules and how the congress conducts itself and such)
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  10. #40
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    Makes you wonder at times what the founding fathers would do if they were suddenly brought back to life!
    You mean, aside from screaming "GET ME OUT! GET ME OUT OF HERE! PLEASE!"...?

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