If Christ was completely without sin...

[swordpath]

Was he actually a carnal man, as you or I am?

 

[IZthe411]

Was he actually a carnal man, as you or I am?

Yes.

Being without sin indicates you have complete control over one's desires and urges, so he was less likely to fall for a woman or some other temptation, unlike you and I.

 

[Mole]

Christ and Misogyny

Was he actually a carnal man, as you or I am?

Like so many figures of myth, he was born of a virgin.

We all know this is physically impossible, so this confirms him as a mythical figure.

And mythical figures are not real, they are imaginary, so we can imagine anything we like about them.

And normally we imagine him as without the carnal desires of an ordinary man.

In fact the myth is that he was not just an ordinary man but God himself.

Of course an interesting question is why don't we imagine him as carnal?

And the answer lies in misogyny.

 

[Oberon]

And the answer lies in misogyny.

Victor, please paint for us a vision of a world without misogyny. What does that look like?

I'm serious, now. I mean this. I want to know.

 

[Brendan]

 

[Mole]

Victor, please paint for us a vision of a world without misogyny. What does that look like?

I'm serious, now. I mean this. I want to know.

Well, we can do this by comparison.

Before 1904 the world was more misogynous, and after 1904 the world was less misogynous.

For in 1904 women gained the national vote in Australia and New Zealand for the first time in human history.

So every time women improve their social position, the world becomes less misogynist.

 

[Mole]

Misogyny and the Stockholm Syndrome

So the myth of Christ is a misogynist myth.

But it is such a powerful myth that even women believe it.

And women become captive to this myth.

This is called the Stockholm Syndrome where the captive identifies with the captor.

And it doesn't matter whether the captors are terrorists or a powerful myth - it's still the Stockholm Syndrome.

 

[sLiPpY]

 

[swordpath]

Even having complete control of one's urges doesn't mean the thoughts aren't there. In the bible it says something along the lines of "if you've looked at a woman lustfully, then you've already committed adultery". Maybe Jesus was lucky to be born an asexual with no desire towards women? I doubt it, but that could be the only plausible explanation.

 

[KDude]

The only way a "carnal" man could be sinless is EXTREME... (actually an unrealistic) amount of fear.

I really liked the Last Temptation of Christ. A struggling Jesus - maybe an INFP (not an INFJ).

OK, bad joke maybe. Good scene though


[youtube="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6SxJlS5OjY"]Last Temptation[/youtube]

 

[Lark]

He was true God and true man, different only in the abscence of sin, which when you think about it may not be that marvellous because he died when he was about thirty if I remember the Easter sermons right, he lived in a greatly different culture from ours, in some ways with much less in the way of temptation, people were too busy slaving to subsist and it was away before anything like the eight hour day, and a much, much greater spiritual focus and preoccupation than today.

 

[Oberon]

Orthodox church doctrine is that Jesus the Christ was both 100 percent God and 100 percent Man. A conundrum, certainly, but that's the Messiah for you.

NOTE: When I say "Orthodox" above, I don't mean in the sense of the Eastern Orthodox Church, but rather in the broader sense of doctrinal legitimacy.

 

[Lark]

Even having complete control of one's urges doesn't mean the thoughts aren't there. In the bible it says something along the lines of "if you've looked at a woman lustfully, then you've already committed adultery". Maybe Jesus was lucky to be born an asexual with no desire towards women? I doubt it, but that could be the only plausible explanation.

No, no, no Jesus was making a point, he exaggerated, deliberately so and if you closely read the gospels you'll know why because the guy was totally frustrated with people not gettting his message or misunderstanding his parables and teaching tales.

So he said if your eye caused you to sin pluck it out, if you hand caused you to sin cut it off, better the temporary loss than eternity seperate from God, ie hell.

Its a selective reading of Jesus to pick stuff like that out, both his supporters and detractors were doing it all he time, they did it in his day, besides people misunderstanding his teachings the authorities were constantly trying to catch him out. The guy was seriously big on forgiveness, especially where some change of heart had taken place and redemption seriously sought out, check that out instead.

 

[IZthe411]

Even having complete control of one's urges doesn't mean the thoughts aren't there. In the bible it says something along the lines of "if you've looked at a woman lustfully, then you've already committed adultry". Maybe Jesus was lucky to be born an asexual with no desire towards women? I doubt it, but that could be the only plausible explanation.

Yeah it does say that- meaning that if you're looking at her lustfully, you've planted seeds in your heart (motivation) that can lead to actually commiting the act, if given the chance. Jesus was perfect in body and mind, meaning he had the ability to discard the thoughts before they got to the point he was hitting on a woman.

The Bible doesn't say it, but I'd think that as a perfect man, Jesus could appreciate beauty in a woman. No need to think that he was asexual. He was a perfect man, able to produce perfect kids, should he have married.

But he was so focused on his assigment to come to Earth and carry out the will of his Father (to die for mankind) that it made no sense for him to settle down and start a family. He was focued on the bigger picture of things.

It's not totally out of the ordinary for a guy today to have made it to 30s and not yet settled down or married- because he's so focused on his education and work. Not to say he isn't attracted to a woman, but his priorities are on other things, so he foregoes any relationships until he feels he's accomplished the other things. Jesus was 33 when he made that sacrifice.

 

[matmos]

...know why because the guy [sic] was totally frustrated with people not gettting his message or misunderstanding his parables and teaching tales.

A bit like you, then.

 

[Lark]

Orthodox church doctrine is that Jesus the Christ was both 100 percent God and 100 percent Man. A conundrum, certainly, but that's the Messiah for you.

NOTE: When I say "Orthodox" above, I don't mean in the sense of the Eastern Orthodox Church, but rather in the broader sense of doctrinal legitimacy.

Old German christianity used to posit that everyone has a spark which is God, Jesus just having more than most. There are points in the new testament in which he talks about how his followers shall be Gods, I think that's in the same sense in which it was taught in Buddhism.

 

[IZthe411]

He was true God and true man, different only in the abscence of sin, which when you think about it may not be that marvellous because he died when he was about thirty if I remember the Easter sermons right, he lived in a greatly different culture from ours, in some ways with much less in the way of temptation, people were too busy slaving to subsist and it was away before anything like the eight hour day, and a much, much greater spiritual focus and preoccupation than today.

Exactly. Sex outside of marriage wasn't as prevalent and accessible then as it is today. It happened, but not to the extent of today.

 

[Oberon]

There are points in the new testament in which he talks about how his followers shall be Gods, I think that's in the same sense in which it was taught in Buddhism.

Got some references for that?

 

[Mole]

Untainted by Women

He was ... different only in the abscence of sin...

It is fascinating that sin is equated with carnal desire.

And this is because the carnal desire is the desire for women.

And the misogynists believed women were inferior and dirty, not much more than animals and to be treated as chattels.

And Christ after all was above all that - he was not only man but God as well. He couldn't actually desire women, that would be beneath his dignity.

Christ is the perfect misogynist image - untainted by women.

 

[Totenkindly]

So was he or wasn't he carnal?

And should he have been if he wasn't?