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If Christ was completely without sin...

Seymour

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In fairness, many of the mainline Protestant churches do pay homage to the Church Fathers, especially St. Augustine of Hippo. I think it's more a certain strain of Evangelicals who take Sola scriptura rather literally.

Depending on the evangelical denomination, there can be kind of a assumed historical framework that goes:

Old Testament -> Jesus -> Church founded -> Church becomes corrupted ... (1500 years) ... my denomination founded which re-establishes the True Church.

as though a huge swath of religious history can be dismissed since it represents the fallen church led astray. That perspective certainly seemed to be the underlying assumption in the church in which I was raised. It can lead to a certain kind of ahistorical perspective.

I'm sure that perspective isn't typical of all evangelicals, though.
 
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Mole

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My Imaginary Friends

So is this the thread to argue about imaginary friends?

My first imaginary friend was Didi. He lived in the mirror of my mother's wardrobe and bore a striking resemblance to myself.

And my second imaginary friend was Paddy O'Flaherty, my dear teddy bear.

And having two imaginary friends, I didn't stop there. Next I befriended Mole, Ratty, Toad and Mr Badger.

And once having started, I now have imaginary friends all over the place.

All it takes is the suspension of disbelief.

And the suspension of disbelief have given me everything from poetry, drama, art and the movies.

And suspension has even given me the Mass where magic happens in front of my very nose, where transubstantiation happens in front of the whole congregation. And all we need to do is suspend our disbelief.

Without the suspension of disbelief we would be profoundly impoverished and barely human.

My imaginary friends are with me every day and I couldn't do without them.

And they couldn't do without me.
 

Tiltyred

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Reminds me a little of a conversation I had with a best friend who was a former Carmelite nun, who called me Invincibly Ignorant. I'm beginning to understand the concept.
 

Take Five

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We are talking about the sinlessness of Christ in this thread, right?
 

Lark

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The Catholic. I'm still not entirely sure how 'sin' or moral actions and their consequences play a roll in Catholicism. For instance, do you need direct forgiveness from God for your actions? Do you compensate for your sins with good deeds like charity? It's almost like, to Protestants, you are only free to do evil. Meanwhile, both good and bad deeds are incorporated into the notion of free will for Catholics. It also seems as if Catholics use a mixture of scripture, tradition, and reason to derive their concept of sin, while Protestants are more affirmative about the Bible and it's view on sin, particularly the NT, which was exceptional because Jesus was teaching forgiveness in a time of ridicule and rigid traditional roles. He ate with all the wrong people. Talked with prostitutes washed people's feet, etc. I know it doesn't sound like much but at the time it was a major reformation.

The fact that some Protestants really only consider the Bible as the only canonical text gives them appearance of disregarding the events that took place after the 1st Century, the formation of the Catholic/Orthodox Churches in Rome, etc. Also gives them the appearance of not knowing... well, much else, not unlike myself.

The RCC church created most of the conceptions of sin and protestant conceptions of sin and salvation are pretty much reactions in one shape or another.

The original Christian conception of sin was so severe that it led scriptural scholars to consider the old testament a work of optimism and the new testament a work of pessimism, a fallen condition, a wicked evil world, a redeemer killed and everyone can look forward to uncertain judgement from a wrathful God.

That's until the Irish come into it, they created an optimistic turn with ideas about sin, the codification of sins into mortal, venial, deadly and a whole system of redeeming yourself through prayer, acts, confession and of course the dispised system of seemingly "buying" salvation through tithing the church and having masses said for you.

This is pretty much the point at which the Irish abbeys on the coastline pulled the world out of Dark Ages but its also the point at which a lot of protestants believe the whole thing went awry and their efforts at reform where apparently to return the church to an earlier stage, in his conflict with Erasmus Luther saw himself as a dogmatist trying to return the Church to orthodoxy.

An incredible, frankly amazing, irony considering that most, if not all, protestants I've encountered tend to believe that the reformation was a revolutionary modernisation and harbringer in a positive sense of civil and religious liberty, toleration, industrialism, capitalism, political revolution, democracy and modernism (I kid you not and its been backed up with BBC historical documentaries and books on the protestant revolution, which are very anglo-American).

At that juncture the RCC church held that a combination of faith and works would save you from eternal damnation, Luther bawlked at this suggesting that what could you do for God since he as the creater can have nothing from you which he didnt create or will in the first place. Personally I hold with Jung's idea, which owes something to German RC beliefs, that we each have a "spark" of God in us, so as it says in the scripture whatever we do to each other we do do God themself.

Luther's position was that you can be saved from sin not by confession, acts or anything else for that matter but by a leap of faith alone, you have to hope and pray. I see that as contra much of the Gospel of Mathew, which mentions the final judgement as says something very different, God not singling out believers from non-believers but persons on the basis of works, and the book of James, in which James suggest faith without good works is dead.

HOWEVER, RCC theologians have issued a consensus document with the Lutherans suggesting that the RCC church is no entirely reconciled to the Lutheran positions on this matter. Infact, so much so that no successive Pope, while they have questioned Vatican 2, has this consensus document and have even suggested, through the priesthood and at least the Jesuits, that individual RCs who dissent on this are committing sins.

Calvin's position was different, he believed there was an elect, this is grounded in old testament teaching about a choosen people, the mention again of a choosen people in the new testament and some of Augustines apart consideration of who was choosen too. The idea is that before you are born you are either justified or not, saved or not, its all already decided, your name is in the "book of life" or its not. If you are part of the elect it could become evident if you are rewarded with riches, which is ironic because not only did Jesus attack those doctrines when they where Jewish ones but also if you live a puritan lifestyle you'll accumulate wealth, if you live the protestant ethic you'll become rich because it coincides with capitalism.

There is a scots author Hogg who satirises this perspective in a novel called confessions of a justified sinner, its meant to be about religious fundamentalism in general though, in which a character believes he is saved, there is nothing he can do to reverse this, therefore he murders and commits crimes.

Now, years ago, life three generations the RCC church in Ireland had a position similar to one which the comic artist Crumb lampooned, that you where born sinful, if you wherent baptised you went to limbo, if you where baptised you where sinless but would commit sins naturally so it was important to have the sacrament of confession as often as possible from as early as possible. It preceeds communion and some older parishioners wouldnt and still dont receive communion without having had confession first. In addition to this, there where a number of baptisms, the baptism of fire (if you are martyred but not baptised by a priest), of water (the regular sort) and another which was to do with works and I believe governed those born and dying without hearing the gospel but living in accordance with natural law (this was used in later years by some people who'd argue that Ghandi et al couldnt possibly be in hell).
 

Lark

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Depending on the evangelical denomination, there has be kind of a assumed historical framework that goes:

Old Testament -> Jesus -> Church founded -> Church becomes corrupted ... (1500 years) ... my denomination founded which re-establishes the True Church.

as though a huge swath of religious history can be dismissed since it represents the fallen church led astray. That perspective certainly seemed to be the underlying assumption in the church in which I was raised. It can lead to a certain kind of ahistorical perspective.

I'm sure that perspective isn't typical of all evangelicals, though.

You know I hate this perspective when it operates in ideology, politics and history too.

I know quite a bit about the Williamite wars, when we where young my Dad took us on day trips around Derry, Aughrum, Eniskillen and The Boyne, I consider it to be history like the history of the Jacobite Uprising in Scotland culminating in the massacre of the clans at Cullodin Moore.

However, there's a lot of people who consider the Williamite wars and 1690 to be exclusively protestant history, both unionists/loyalists/protestants led by the Orange Order and kick the pope bands and some nationalists/republicans/RCs.

The same thing has happened with the history of the reformation and the protestant ascendency in the UK, even the creation of the UK through the act of union, the role of John Knox in the Scottish protestant upheavel and then as tutor of the future unifying Scots monarch who virtually invented Britain. All this is not well known and too divisive for many. Its either "ours" or "their" history and its recalled either to shame your opponent or harden your own resolve.

I think that similar things happen with the history of the French Revolution, The USSR and other history, like in the US the unionists, the whiskey rebels, the civil war, theodore roosevelts progressive party, edward bellamy and nationalism, Fordism and the modern corporation.

It really bugs me because I dont think it should be that way, not just because people should understand their perceived or apparent opposition, that generally I dont think ignorance in whatever shape is a good idea but also that they can have a clear view of their own faults or potential faults. Like I maintain that socialists should take seriously The Black Book of Communism, whether they consider it propaganda or not.
 

Stanton Moore

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So are you ridiculing other posters on this thread, or not? Or does my question represent a bifurcation fallacy?

I stated an opinion. If you find it injurious, then block me. you have the power, little mouse. That your question may represent a fallacy seems on-target for this thread.
 
O

Oberon

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I stated an opinion. If you find it injurious, then block me. you have the power, little mouse.

Well, I wouldn't want to block you over a misunderstanding. Though it looked to me as though you were being purposely offensive, I wasn't sure, and I still am not.

That your question may represent a fallacy seems on-target for this thread.

I'm wrong twenty times a day at least, but I'm deliberately obnoxious somewhat less frequently. I struggle harder against pride than malice.

But if I were being malicious to you, I would tell you so.
 

Coriolis

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That could just be an old habit of referring to God as He. It's been that way since before the biblical books were written and old habits die hard, if they die at all. It's not realistic to expect people to break an timeless habit because contemporary society all of a sudden has a feminist awakening. It's what they've been taught forever. All mature reasonable believers understand that God is not the old man with the beard.
It is surprisingly insidious for "just an old habit". Society has broken many such "timeless habits" in recent generations. The fact that this one is hanging on shows how much more deeply seated it is.

Coriolis: I feel it's unnecessary to talk about He or She when we talk about God. It seems completely extraneous to the conversation and puts an emphasis on something that doesn't belong. I know this is a feminist issue and I understand and to some extent agree with the ideas about gender equality being reflected in authoritative texts, but if we're really going to talk about God, God has no gender. And to me it's important to find common ground to talk about God, rather than reasons to criticize other religions. So this insistence on a divine feminine being represented in the Christian church (or any other) seems to me to be a red herring. Also to the extent the female is represented in the Catholic church, with all respect, that is not my idea of the perfect woman, either, so I don't especially see it as an improvement over no female figurehead at all.

But again, to anthropomorphise God to such an extent seems to me to somewhat miss the point.
In theory, you are quite correct. In practice, most languages have pronouns that are masculine, feminine, or neuter, and we must choose one to refer to God. More descriptive terminology like Lord or Father (or Lady, or Mother) similarly carries gender connotation. To paraphrase the Bible, "male and female God created them". The idea of male and female is coded into creation. Representation of a divine feminine in any church might be a red herring, if there were not an almost exclusive reliance on a divine masculine.

Anthropomorphizing God does to some extent miss the point, but to me, it is a point that we cannot entirely "hit", at least not in this earthly life. We as humans cannot completely and accurately know God. We can do our best to understand and relate to the divine from our human perspective, a perspective deeply influenced by distinctions of gender, age, race, ability, culture, etc. etc. While we might correctly say our common humanity transcends all this, many of us strive not to ignore these distinctions, but to embrace and appreciate them in our human diversity. Acknowledging and appreciating the diversity in God using terms familar and accessible to us as humans is similarly useful to many, but best not done with blinders on.

As for Catholic representations of female perfection, I am not Catholic, and have no particular attachment to Mary, or other feminine representations promoted within this faith. My observations on Mary were simply historical.

The Gnostic texts generally date from the second century onwards. The Nag Hammadi texts themselves date from the third and fourth centuries, and they did not have much of a wider impact on the Christian world, as partially can be seen by the fact they weren't mentioned at all by Church Councils when determining the Biblical canon.
There is disagreement on the exact date of these writings, with many scholars placing them during or shortly after the life of Jesus (mid-first century), and others placing them in the second century. The dating of manuscripts themselves is misleading since the texts may very well have existed in earlier manuscripts or oral traditions much earlier. Given that these writings were not simply ignored but actively suppressed at times, it is no wonder that the copies discovered are few and incomplete. Yes, their impact on the Christian world was indeed limited by the actions of church councils in determining canon, often for reasons more political than spiritual. This is my point.
 
S

Sniffles

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There is disagreement on the exact date of these writings, with many scholars placing them during or shortly after the life of Jesus (mid-first century), and others placing them in the second century. The dating of manuscripts themselves is misleading since the texts may very well have existed in earlier manuscripts or oral traditions much earlier.

Except there's little(if any) actual evidence to date them before the second century. Everything else is speculation.


Given that these writings were not simply ignored but actively suppressed at times, it is no wonder that the copies discovered are few and incomplete.
Actually scholars don't even know why the Nag Hammadi library ended up where they did. They were simply lost for a very long time. The actual conditions that lead up to their burrying are shrouded in mystery, so you can't just say they were necessarily suppressed.

Yes, their impact on the Christian world was indeed limited by the actions of church councils in determining canon, often for reasons more political than spiritual. This is my point.

The Gnostics were very secretitive and selective by nature, so even on that score they weren't going to make much impact. The fact the Church Councils didn't mention any of these texts seems to reflect they weren't really well known anyways, in contrast to other texts that were more well known. It also speaks against the argument that they were necessarily suppressed.

For the most part the Church Councils simply confirmed what was already generally regarded as the accepted canon within the Church, so I don't really know where politics comes in here. The politics that usually are involved concerns those who try to claim the Gnostics towards their own ends. Socialists, Feminists, Occultists/New Age, Esoteric Fascists, you name it. They've all propped up the Gnostics as the true carriers of Christ's message, which not surprisingly coincides with their particular ideological agenda. The Feminist interpretation seems to get the most attention nowadays, which of course is highly ironic as Philip Jenkins has noted:
Among the most prominent advocates of certain Gnostic Gospels have been radical feminist scholars. Yet, according to Jenkins, these scholars seem to ignore the fact that although Gnostic texts had much to say about women, the Gnostic religious system regarded women as being used by evil beings to keep humanity enslaved through their childbearing. For example, Gnostic texts repeatedly express the idea that the Savior came to "destroy the works of the female." Jenkins concludes, "The willingness to claim such texts as part of a lost women's canon is troubling testimony to the ideological character of some modern interpretations of the hidden gospels" (p. 147).

Hidden Gospels: How the Search for Jesus Lost Its Way | Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society | Find Articles at BNET
 

Take Five

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It is surprisingly insidious for "just an old habit". Society has broken many such "timeless habits" in recent generations. The fact that this one is hanging on shows how much more deeply seated it is.

The "He" is just a figure of speech. It' just like seeing someone you sort of know walking down the street and reflexively saying "How ya doing?" It doesn't really mean much.
 

Lark

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:coffee::coffee::17026::moodeath:

Oh seriously, the whole God is a "He" business?! Seriously?! We're onto that now?!
 
G

Ginkgo

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The Gnostics were intentionally esoteric.

The entire point of Gnosticism was to be "Illumined", and set aside from the rest of humanity.

To evangelize would be to strip themselves of their elite status as knowledge bearers.

Whether they were/are actually illumined is up for debate.

I think this fixation on the particular can be dangerous.
 

Coriolis

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A main idea of the Gnostics, if I recall, is that knowledge of the divine (gnosis) must be gained by each individual directly, and not through a priest or other intermediary. Such a perspective is at odds with the idea of a church hierarchy, where priests and bishops set themselves up as the authority on spiritual matters, expecting believers to approach the divine through them and their institutional rituals and procedures.

The Gnostics, and other "non-mainstream" early Jesus movements should not be judged by the use or misuse to which their ideas are put by modern-day feminists, socialists, etc. Similarly, it is not a valid criticism simply that their groups were small, or their methods different from the larger contemporary Jesus groups that became the mainstream. Quantity is not necessarily quality, and difference is not necessarily wrong. It would appear that the goal of the Gnostics was less making a broad impact than aiding those so inclined to pursue their spirituality in the Gnostic way. (If more religious groups held less expansive aims like this, there would probably be far less religious conflict.) The point is that there was considerably more diversity in the very early church (< 200 BCE) than afterward, and much of the diversity was deliberately suppressed.

As for the politics, that seems to have predated the official church councils in much the same way that de facto selection of presidential nominees precedes the official convention. The councils codified what their membership had worked to put into practice. There would be no need or benefit at that point to document the positions of the “also-rans”, except to vilify them. Suppression, by definition, excludes any substantive discussion of what is suppressed. The Gnostics were no more the “true carriers of Christ’s message” than any other group was. Each has a piece of the puzzle, much like the blind men and the elephant. Excluding the views of one group or another denies that the elephant has a tail, or a tusk, or a trunk.
 

skylights

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not to be an ass (actually this is completely to be an ass)

the mystifying question:

did jesus poop?

:jew:



on an... er... cleaner note, i'm enjoying reading this thread. interesting stuff.
 

swordpath

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Just as women don't poop, I think Jesus is another that is an exception.
 
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