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  1. #61
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    most wrongdoing is committed with some degree of knowing better. knowledge is usually the most relevant factor behind right and wrong actions (this is why there are different degrees of murder). the existence of a moral hierarchy implies that we are morally imperfect. it follows that although we all know better, none of us know best. if nothing can be ascertained, to dismiss something because of erroneous thinking by those who represent it proves that we can no sooner believe our own contrary conclusions.

    knowing something that someone else doesn't is a one way street... you can know they don't know, but they cannot possibly know what they don't. humanity as a whole cannot know what it doesn't. you'd have to know everything to know that you know everything, and even the slightest bit less would leave you not knowing what you don't know. in the same way, the truth is absolute and something is either entirely true or it is simply untrue. truth and omniscience are one and the same.

    the existence of partial knowledge and truth implies the existence of omniscience because either [absolute] truth exists or there is no such thing as truth. it could not be both.

  2. #62
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    ... Pushing heaven, hell and the devil is meant to bring solace to the disillusioned righteous as much as it is an attempt to scare the wicked straight.
    Now that is a remarkable point to make.

    It really is. As with some of David's Psalms, justice will be done, the evil shall be punished, and the faithful shall be validated and vindicated. It's a sign and a hope that the faithful have not been wasting their lives after all, believing in something that either is not real or is not worth following.

    (So getting back to the OP, I'm still failing to see how it's a sign of maturity of thought and behavior. It seems self-serving in many ways, instead.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Yes, it is clear that the Christian concepts of heaven and hell were created as to remedy the complications with the Jewish idea of earthly punishment and reward. The fact that God allows evil to prevail so widely has always been a fundamental problem in Christianity. Pushing heaven, hell and the devil is meant to bring solace to the disillusioned righteous as much as it is an attempt to scare the wicked straight.
    I hate to point this out, but there are also people in the church who, rather than trying to push an agenda that would strengthen the church, actually thought that the whole heaven/earth/hell idea was an accurate cosmology. We probably ought not leave them out of the discussion.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I hate to point this out, but there are also people in the church who, rather than trying to push an agenda that would strengthen the church, actually thought that the whole heaven/earth/hell idea was an accurate cosmology. We probably ought not leave them out of the discussion.
    Very true. Go ahead, we're listening.

    Some questions:
    1. Where did their ideas originate?
    2. Why might they have persisted in them?
    etc.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Very true. Go ahead, we're listening.

    Some questions:
    1. Where did their ideas originate?
    2. Why might they have persisted in them?
    etc.
    I don't know! I am by no means convinced that it's an accurate cosmology!

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I don't know! I am by no means convinced that it's an accurate cosmology!
    But you were the one who said we weren't considering them!

    Basically, I think it was (1) religious teachings coupled with (2) common-sense eyesight observation (the sun DID seem to revolve around the earth!) that drove people to honestly believe the old cosmology was true way-back-when. No one could challenge that until scientific study and data became more trustworthy.

    That is my guess.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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