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  1. #31
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    An interesting concept, to be sure. I'm not sure where I stand on afterlife, but I do believe we can create the condition of "hell" in our own lives by simple cause and effect of many of our decisions, by not dealing with our problems and the mess inside of ourselves, by shutting ourselves off to growth...

    When you refer to hell, do you refer to it as a literal sort of fire and brimstone place or more of a state of mind/being?
    Pretty much as both, I'm a strong believer in some of what Kahil Gibran and Meister Eckhart (spelling on each of those names could be out) that if you dont experience heaven (and by extention I would also say hell) in this life you arent likely to experience in the afterlife either.

    Eckhart also said some unusual but interesting things about his belief that entities would purge spirits of all traces of terrestial, temporal existence when they died, he said that if you where attached to life then you would see them as devils or demons tormenting and torturing you, if you wherent attached to life and were prepared to join the heavenly host then you'd see them as angels lifting you up. Its got corresponding views in buddhism, zen and RC beliefs about purgatory too, although it could be coincidential rather than exacting.

    Its interesting how you asked about an actual state or place vs. a concept, that is important, its probably more important, for the purposes of this thread, as a cultural concept rather than whether it is objectively speaking a place.

  2. #32
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I am not at all anti-Christian but one of my main problems with the religion is its approach to consequences and the after-life. It really bothers me that heaven and hell are used as carrot and stick ethics. Christianity doesn't encourage people to do the right thing because it is right, instead it exploits the fears and selfishness of human beings to twist their arms into behaving morally.
    I'm going to clarify that this applies to the most popularized forms of Christianity, however I know numbers of individuals who approach their Christian faith legitimately in a very different way and are quite "free" and do things for positive reasons, without judgment of others, versus the easier form of legalistic Christianity that is easy to practice, that seeks to dominate and control through bondage to Law. It's one of those interesting faiths that can be approached on different layers.

    Not all Christian faiths are as bad as others in this regard but there's often a strong emphasis on the word 'sin'. And 'sin' is often implies "something that's wrong because we tell you it is", which of course is encouraging moral ignorance. The Church should be a moral guide, assisting you in learning what is right and how to act righteously, instead of simply bullying you into it.
    The most helpful metaphor for me within Christianity within recent years has been "God as parent" -- especially as expressed in the parable of the Prodigal Son Loving Father, where we see an example of parenthood that bears with and believes in all things and instead of approaching things through the "sin" facet approaches things through the "love" facet.

    (I also think it validates your point that this story for decades/centuries has been referred to as "The Prodigal Son" -- emphasizing the child's straying from the "right path" -- versus it being better embodied in the idea of the "Loving Father," where we would see the parent's sacrifice, long-suffering, and desire to overcome the relational gulf instead of merely punishing a child who disappointed him.)

    It's not that people don't stray, but that the viewpoint people have approached it on is much more concerned with judging other peope's behavior, determining how good they are, and then punishing them for wrongdoing, rather than seeing relational violations as painful breaks between people and seeking to restore them positively. A purely punitive hell in this sense seems to run counter to the Christian God's expressed desire to restore people to himself.

    Anyway, overall, I don't see a punitive Hell as helpful psychologically, so even if the culture is straying from that concept, it's not necessarily all a bad thing as supposed by the OP.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #33
    S Saiyan God Mace's Avatar
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    Not that I'm immodest to share, and I (otherwise) could skip this 'precursor' of a debate for a better day - but interesting, my siblings and I briefly had a joint discussion on hell on around the same time as the OP, ourselves. This is given on our disposition to the majority of people, in general, which made it a rather serious one.

    (Come to think of it, I might as well save what we'd discussed for a better day.)

  4. #34
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Uh... thanks for sharing. Or not. Or something.

    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I am not at all anti-Christian but one of my main problems with the religion is its approach to consequences and the after-life. It really bothers me that heaven and hell are used as carrot and stick ethics. Christianity doesn't encourage people to do the right thing because it is right, instead it exploits the fears and selfishness of human beings to twist their arms into behaving morally. It is also an attempt to place Church doctrine above the conscience of the individual, if not teaching people to ignore their conscience altogether. It glosses over and clouds the real issues at the heart of any moral matter, simply reducing things down to: "Don't do that because you will go to hell". To me this is like saying, "Don't kill people because you will go to jail", all the while missing the actual point that killing itself is wrong.

    Not all Christian faiths are as bad as others in this regard but there's often a strong emphasis on the word 'sin'. And 'sin' is often implies "something that's wrong because we tell you it is", which of course is encouraging moral ignorance. The Church should be a moral guide, assisting you in learning what is right and how to act righteously, instead of simply bullying you into it.
    I don't mean to be critical... no disrespect intended, in other words... but I'm pretty sure your understanding of Christianity isn't as good as you think it is.

  6. #36
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    Hadephobia is a morbid, irrational fear of hell. The hadephobic person may fear the creatures and demons that are supposed to inhabit hell or that they may take action that will result in their being sent to hell. It is a logical assumption to think that the person coping with this phobia would also fear Satan. People coping with Hadephobia may become zealously religious and avoid any situation that they feel might lead them astray.

    Read more: Hadephobia: The Fear of Hell | HealthMad

  7. #37
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    From perspective of eternity heaven and hell are basicly the same place if you ask me.

  8. #38
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sLiPpY View Post
    Hadephobia is a morbid, irrational fear of hell. The hadephobic person may fear the creatures and demons that are supposed to inhabit hell or that they may take action that will result in their being sent to hell. It is a logical assumption to think that the person coping with this phobia would also fear Satan. People coping with Hadephobia may become zealously religious and avoid any situation that they feel might lead them astray.

    Read more: Hadephobia: The Fear of Hell | HealthMad
    SAD. That makes me so sad to think about those people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    From perspective of eternity heaven and hell are basicly the same place if you ask me.
    Why? Limiting of possibilities but being forced to exist forever?
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    From perspective of eternity heaven and hell are basicly the same place if you ask me.
    Ja, being stuck in some tacky place with St. Peter at the door?

    Singing praises and all that shit 24/7?

    Now that would be hell.

  10. #40
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sLiPpY View Post
    Ja, being stuck in some tacky place with St. Peter at the door?

    Singing praises and all that shit 24/7?

    Now that would be hell.
    that's pretty much the case for why people might choose "hell". (Because "heaven," to them, would be "hell.")

    @antisocial one: Yup. Eternity always freaked me out more than heaven or hell; the thought of something going on endlessly, to me, is hell.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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