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  1. #21
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    What is appealing about being reasonable?

    Furthermore, what is the definition of "reason"?

    What is appealing about following faith?

    What is the definition of a faithful or religious methodology?

    I would like to see someone define and then compare these things. I wonder what we can learn from this comparison.
    St. Anslem said it best from the Christian perspective: "Faith seeking understanding."

    Faith is the first step to greater understanding, and faith is the means to that greater understanding. The Islamic philosopher Averroes noted that faith and reason are two means to the same end - the truth. The notion that faith and reason are in opposition is largely a by-product of the Reformation and the rise of modernity.

  2. #22
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I believe in hell sooner than I believe in heaven.

  3. #23
    Senior Member niffer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I believe in hell sooner than I believe in heaven.
    Haha how come? I tend to think the opposite because it's just easier to be satisfied that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The notion that faith and reason are in opposition is largely a by-product of the Reformation and the rise of modernity.
    That would make sense, I never realized that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    holy shit am I a feeler?
    if you like my avatar, it's because i took it myself! : D

  4. #24
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    St. Anslem said it best from the Christian perspective: "Faith seeking understanding."

    Faith is the first step to greater understanding, and faith is the means to that greater understanding. The Islamic philosopher Averroes noted that faith and reason are two means to the same end - the truth. The notion that faith and reason are in opposition is largely a by-product of the Reformation and the rise of modernity.
    It's true, the Catholic Church does teach the doctrine of Faith and Reason.

    But there is a catch, Catch 22 you might say.

    For Catholics take Faith as a priori and then apply Reason to Faith.

    This is called begging the question.

  5. #25
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    This is called begging the question.
    No it isn't Victor. Try again.

  6. #26
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    Haha how come? I tend to think the opposite because it's just easier to be satisfied that way.
    [youtube="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hqttcbv26jU&feature=related"]So much trouble[/youtube]

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I've noticed a trend in people who can be broadly classified as believers or people who want to believe that they have a preference for faiths which have no concept of hell.
    Interesting personal observation, thanks for the update. Any other trends you'd like to point out, perhaps something on twitter?


    Similarly there are wholesale condemnations of faiths or authorities because the "condemn people to hell", personally this is news to me, the best authorities in my own faith have concluded that if hell exists it is the abscence of God by the refusal of God, therefore the gates to hell are locked from the inside and the "condemned" hold the keys themselves.
    Shockingly, a lot of people don't like the idea of living in what Christopher Hitchens referred to as a celestial North Korea: a dictator (the concept of a god or deity) is always watching over you, can read your thoughts and convict you not only based on your actions, but of thought-crimes. The only real difference between NK and religion being that at least in North Korea you can escape those conditions by dying, which isn't the case with the concept of religion, where if you fuck up somewhere along the line, the torture has only just begun. As for me, I'm an atheist, so I don't believe in a god or a hell. I can certainly understand, however, for those that do believe in a god why the concept of an eternal punishment for something as small as thinking about someone of the opposite sex lustfully is not only undesirable, but simply doesn't make sense, assuming their god is 'loving.' Thusly, I think it has very little to do with people shedding personal responsibility for their actions and a lot more to do with the fact that people see the stupidity of the concept of hell.

    Anyway, I tend to think that this is contingent to another secular trend away from thinking consequentially or about choice and consequence. I've thought there was a crisis in personal responsibility for while but this is something greater than this I think its more of a whole sale maturational crisis.
    Anyway, I tend to think you make a lot of half-brained assumptions about correlation and causation which have no basis in fact. Oh, sorry, I just figured as long as you were throwing personal theories out there, I might as well join in.

    Consequential thinking develops around about 21yrs of age, at least in the western world, but that boundary is getting pushed back, back, back all the time.
    Um, can I see your source for the 21 years of age part as well as how it has been/is being pushed back all of the time?



    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    People dont like the idea of hell or personal responsibility because it implies choice, with a finality, once a choice is made its not easily unmade.
    See above. Although you have an interesting theory, I see little factual evidence from you supporting a correlation between peoples' concepts of hell and their personal responsibility.
    “My generation's apathy. I'm disgusted with it. I'm disgusted with my own apathy too, for being spineless and not always standing up against racism, sexism and all those other -isms the counterculture has been whinning about for years.” -Kurt Cobain

  8. #28
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    I am not at all anti-Christian but one of my main problems with the religion is its approach to consequences and the after-life. It really bothers me that heaven and hell are used as carrot and stick ethics. Christianity doesn't encourage people to do the right thing because it is right, instead it exploits the fears and selfishness of human beings to twist their arms into behaving morally. It is also an attempt to place Church doctrine above the conscience of the individual, if not teaching people to ignore their conscience altogether. It glosses over and clouds the real issues at the heart of any moral matter, simply reducing things down to: "Don't do that because you will go to hell". To me this is like saying, "Don't kill people because you will go to jail", all the while missing the actual point that killing itself is wrong.

    Not all Christian faiths are as bad as others in this regard but there's often a strong emphasis on the word 'sin'. And 'sin' is often implies "something that's wrong because we tell you it is", which of course is encouraging moral ignorance. The Church should be a moral guide, assisting you in learning what is right and how to act righteously, instead of simply bullying you into it.

  9. #29
    Senior Member niffer's Avatar
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    ^ I agree.

    I think though when kids are being taught about their family's religion, they'll sometimes need a scare before they'll want to listen.

    Thankfully some people grow out of this phase and realize that some things are seen as "sins" for a reason other than arbitrarily being sent to hell for them. Some people. :rolleyes2:
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    holy shit am I a feeler?
    if you like my avatar, it's because i took it myself! : D

  10. #30
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I'd have thought you'd be all on for personal bias considering who you have as a signature, that's as much of a reply as you'll get from me because I reckon you're a bit of a bitter anti-communist and its contaminated the rest of your thinking.

    Pretty sure that simply because you consider it to resemble NK isnt going to make God and an afterlife disappear, provided it actually exists, but it sure would set you up for a miserable eternity if you're going to experience it like that. I reckon Hitchens views are pretty sad, it used to be Christendom's iconoclasts who projected their own very human internal scripts onto the cosmos but now the athiests are giving them a good run for their money.

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