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Hell and consequences

S

Sniffles

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What is appealing about being reasonable?

Furthermore, what is the definition of "reason"?

What is appealing about following faith?

What is the definition of a faithful or religious methodology?

I would like to see someone define and then compare these things. I wonder what we can learn from this comparison.

St. Anslem said it best from the Christian perspective: "Faith seeking understanding."

Faith is the first step to greater understanding, and faith is the means to that greater understanding. The Islamic philosopher Averroes noted that faith and reason are two means to the same end - the truth. The notion that faith and reason are in opposition is largely a by-product of the Reformation and the rise of modernity.
 

niffer

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I believe in hell sooner than I believe in heaven.

Haha how come? I tend to think the opposite because it's just easier to be satisfied that way.

The notion that faith and reason are in opposition is largely a by-product of the Reformation and the rise of modernity.

That would make sense, I never realized that.
 

Mole

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St. Anslem said it best from the Christian perspective: "Faith seeking understanding."

Faith is the first step to greater understanding, and faith is the means to that greater understanding. The Islamic philosopher Averroes noted that faith and reason are two means to the same end - the truth. The notion that faith and reason are in opposition is largely a by-product of the Reformation and the rise of modernity.

It's true, the Catholic Church does teach the doctrine of Faith and Reason.

But there is a catch, Catch 22 you might say.

For Catholics take Faith as a priori and then apply Reason to Faith.

This is called begging the question.
 

soccerjunkie1996

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I've noticed a trend in people who can be broadly classified as believers or people who want to believe that they have a preference for faiths which have no concept of hell.
Interesting personal observation, thanks for the update. Any other trends you'd like to point out, perhaps something on twitter?


Similarly there are wholesale condemnations of faiths or authorities because the "condemn people to hell", personally this is news to me, the best authorities in my own faith have concluded that if hell exists it is the abscence of God by the refusal of God, therefore the gates to hell are locked from the inside and the "condemned" hold the keys themselves.
Shockingly, a lot of people don't like the idea of living in what Christopher Hitchens referred to as a celestial North Korea: a dictator (the concept of a god or deity) is always watching over you, can read your thoughts and convict you not only based on your actions, but of thought-crimes. The only real difference between NK and religion being that at least in North Korea you can escape those conditions by dying, which isn't the case with the concept of religion, where if you fuck up somewhere along the line, the torture has only just begun. As for me, I'm an atheist, so I don't believe in a god or a hell. I can certainly understand, however, for those that do believe in a god why the concept of an eternal punishment for something as small as thinking about someone of the opposite sex lustfully is not only undesirable, but simply doesn't make sense, assuming their god is 'loving.' Thusly, I think it has very little to do with people shedding personal responsibility for their actions and a lot more to do with the fact that people see the stupidity of the concept of hell.

Anyway, I tend to think that this is contingent to another secular trend away from thinking consequentially or about choice and consequence. I've thought there was a crisis in personal responsibility for while but this is something greater than this I think its more of a whole sale maturational crisis.
Anyway, I tend to think you make a lot of half-brained assumptions about correlation and causation which have no basis in fact. Oh, sorry, I just figured as long as you were throwing personal theories out there, I might as well join in.

Consequential thinking develops around about 21yrs of age, at least in the western world, but that boundary is getting pushed back, back, back all the time.
Um, can I see your source for the 21 years of age part as well as how it has been/is being pushed back all of the time?



People dont like the idea of hell or personal responsibility because it implies choice, with a finality, once a choice is made its not easily unmade.
See above. Although you have an interesting theory, I see little factual evidence from you supporting a correlation between peoples' concepts of hell and their personal responsibility.
 

Southern Kross

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I am not at all anti-Christian but one of my main problems with the religion is its approach to consequences and the after-life. It really bothers me that heaven and hell are used as carrot and stick ethics. Christianity doesn't encourage people to do the right thing because it is right, instead it exploits the fears and selfishness of human beings to twist their arms into behaving morally. It is also an attempt to place Church doctrine above the conscience of the individual, if not teaching people to ignore their conscience altogether. It glosses over and clouds the real issues at the heart of any moral matter, simply reducing things down to: "Don't do that because you will go to hell". To me this is like saying, "Don't kill people because you will go to jail", all the while missing the actual point that killing itself is wrong. :doh:

Not all Christian faiths are as bad as others in this regard but there's often a strong emphasis on the word 'sin'. And 'sin' is often implies "something that's wrong because we tell you it is", which of course is encouraging moral ignorance. The Church should be a moral guide, assisting you in learning what is right and how to act righteously, instead of simply bullying you into it.
 

niffer

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^ I agree.

I think though when kids are being taught about their family's religion, they'll sometimes need a scare before they'll want to listen.

Thankfully some people grow out of this phase and realize that some things are seen as "sins" for a reason other than arbitrarily being sent to hell for them. Some people. :rolleyes2:
 

Lark

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I'd have thought you'd be all on for personal bias considering who you have as a signature, that's as much of a reply as you'll get from me because I reckon you're a bit of a bitter anti-communist and its contaminated the rest of your thinking.

Pretty sure that simply because you consider it to resemble NK isnt going to make God and an afterlife disappear, provided it actually exists, but it sure would set you up for a miserable eternity if you're going to experience it like that. I reckon Hitchens views are pretty sad, it used to be Christendom's iconoclasts who projected their own very human internal scripts onto the cosmos but now the athiests are giving them a good run for their money.
 

Lark

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An interesting concept, to be sure. I'm not sure where I stand on afterlife, but I do believe we can create the condition of "hell" in our own lives by simple cause and effect of many of our decisions, by not dealing with our problems and the mess inside of ourselves, by shutting ourselves off to growth...

When you refer to hell, do you refer to it as a literal sort of fire and brimstone place or more of a state of mind/being?

Pretty much as both, I'm a strong believer in some of what Kahil Gibran and Meister Eckhart (spelling on each of those names could be out) that if you dont experience heaven (and by extention I would also say hell) in this life you arent likely to experience in the afterlife either.

Eckhart also said some unusual but interesting things about his belief that entities would purge spirits of all traces of terrestial, temporal existence when they died, he said that if you where attached to life then you would see them as devils or demons tormenting and torturing you, if you wherent attached to life and were prepared to join the heavenly host then you'd see them as angels lifting you up. Its got corresponding views in buddhism, zen and RC beliefs about purgatory too, although it could be coincidential rather than exacting.

Its interesting how you asked about an actual state or place vs. a concept, that is important, its probably more important, for the purposes of this thread, as a cultural concept rather than whether it is objectively speaking a place.
 

Totenkindly

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I am not at all anti-Christian but one of my main problems with the religion is its approach to consequences and the after-life. It really bothers me that heaven and hell are used as carrot and stick ethics. Christianity doesn't encourage people to do the right thing because it is right, instead it exploits the fears and selfishness of human beings to twist their arms into behaving morally.

I'm going to clarify that this applies to the most popularized forms of Christianity, however I know numbers of individuals who approach their Christian faith legitimately in a very different way and are quite "free" and do things for positive reasons, without judgment of others, versus the easier form of legalistic Christianity that is easy to practice, that seeks to dominate and control through bondage to Law. It's one of those interesting faiths that can be approached on different layers.

Not all Christian faiths are as bad as others in this regard but there's often a strong emphasis on the word 'sin'. And 'sin' is often implies "something that's wrong because we tell you it is", which of course is encouraging moral ignorance. The Church should be a moral guide, assisting you in learning what is right and how to act righteously, instead of simply bullying you into it.

The most helpful metaphor for me within Christianity within recent years has been "God as parent" -- especially as expressed in the parable of the Prodigal Son Loving Father, where we see an example of parenthood that bears with and believes in all things and instead of approaching things through the "sin" facet approaches things through the "love" facet.

(I also think it validates your point that this story for decades/centuries has been referred to as "The Prodigal Son" -- emphasizing the child's straying from the "right path" -- versus it being better embodied in the idea of the "Loving Father," where we would see the parent's sacrifice, long-suffering, and desire to overcome the relational gulf instead of merely punishing a child who disappointed him.)

It's not that people don't stray, but that the viewpoint people have approached it on is much more concerned with judging other peope's behavior, determining how good they are, and then punishing them for wrongdoing, rather than seeing relational violations as painful breaks between people and seeking to restore them positively. A purely punitive hell in this sense seems to run counter to the Christian God's expressed desire to restore people to himself.

Anyway, overall, I don't see a punitive Hell as helpful psychologically, so even if the culture is straying from that concept, it's not necessarily all a bad thing as supposed by the OP.
 

AOA

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Not that I'm immodest to share, and I (otherwise) could skip this 'precursor' of a debate for a better day - but interesting, my siblings and I briefly had a joint discussion on hell on around the same time as the OP, ourselves. This is given on our disposition to the majority of people, in general, which made it a rather serious one.

(Come to think of it, I might as well save what we'd discussed for a better day.)
 

Totenkindly

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Uh... thanks for sharing. Or not. Or something.

:rofl1:
 
O

Oberon

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I am not at all anti-Christian but one of my main problems with the religion is its approach to consequences and the after-life. It really bothers me that heaven and hell are used as carrot and stick ethics. Christianity doesn't encourage people to do the right thing because it is right, instead it exploits the fears and selfishness of human beings to twist their arms into behaving morally. It is also an attempt to place Church doctrine above the conscience of the individual, if not teaching people to ignore their conscience altogether. It glosses over and clouds the real issues at the heart of any moral matter, simply reducing things down to: "Don't do that because you will go to hell". To me this is like saying, "Don't kill people because you will go to jail", all the while missing the actual point that killing itself is wrong. :doh:

Not all Christian faiths are as bad as others in this regard but there's often a strong emphasis on the word 'sin'. And 'sin' is often implies "something that's wrong because we tell you it is", which of course is encouraging moral ignorance. The Church should be a moral guide, assisting you in learning what is right and how to act righteously, instead of simply bullying you into it.

I don't mean to be critical... no disrespect intended, in other words... but I'm pretty sure your understanding of Christianity isn't as good as you think it is.
 

sLiPpY

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Hadephobia is a morbid, irrational fear of hell. The hadephobic person may fear the creatures and demons that are supposed to inhabit hell or that they may take action that will result in their being sent to hell. It is a logical assumption to think that the person coping with this phobia would also fear Satan. People coping with Hadephobia may become zealously religious and avoid any situation that they feel might lead them astray. :devil:

Read more: Hadephobia: The Fear of Hell | HealthMad
 

gromit

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Hadephobia is a morbid, irrational fear of hell. The hadephobic person may fear the creatures and demons that are supposed to inhabit hell or that they may take action that will result in their being sent to hell. It is a logical assumption to think that the person coping with this phobia would also fear Satan. People coping with Hadephobia may become zealously religious and avoid any situation that they feel might lead them astray. :devil:

Read more: Hadephobia: The Fear of Hell | HealthMad

SAD. That makes me so sad to think about those people...

From perspective of eternity heaven and hell are basicly the same place if you ask me.
Why? Limiting of possibilities but being forced to exist forever?
 

sLiPpY

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From perspective of eternity heaven and hell are basicly the same place if you ask me.

Ja, being stuck in some tacky place with St. Peter at the door?

Singing praises and all that shit 24/7?

Now that would be hell.
 

Totenkindly

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Ja, being stuck in some tacky place with St. Peter at the door?

Singing praises and all that shit 24/7?

Now that would be hell.

that's pretty much the case for why people might choose "hell". (Because "heaven," to them, would be "hell.")

@antisocial one: Yup. Eternity always freaked me out more than heaven or hell; the thought of something going on endlessly, to me, is hell.
 
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