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  1. #51
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Well I agree with you but I am afraid that the world is not nice enough place for this to worrk. What is basicly the core of the problem.

    Here is a trivial example. Towards your logic it is it barbaric to wipe out Somalian pirates from this world. Seriously why should we tolerate them ?
    And that is when we come down to the basic core of letting others show their values and applying whot they show they believe to themselves.

    If they show no value for life, then there's nothing wrong in killing them off, as they obviously don't care. If they steal others' possessions, then they do not have value on personal property and their own may be destroyed or taken at will.

    Until someone does something to show such, however, if they are tolerant of others' beliefs and do not attempt to force their own in place with the assumption that theirs are more 'right' (for example, the belief that they think the other person should die, and they feel that their opinion holds more weight than that person's opinion they should live), so long as they are accepting that others' beliefs can coexist beside theirs without conflict, then they are entitled to be left alone.

    The only times yeu ever see a problem with this, anyway, are the times when one group just flat out becomes intolerant to large degree in the first place. For example, when the KKK decides to actually act out against black people. Sure, yeu have the right to hate them to the core... yeu just don't have the right to do anything about it. That's whot tolerance truly is... accepting that 'well maybe they're right, maybe I'm right, it doesn't matter, let's just agree to disagree and stay the hell away from each other'.

    When that breaks down, that's when yeu get situations which cause the things yeu mentioned, such as the world not being nice enough for this to work... or the pirates...

    In a truly tolerant world, christians would still hate gays, but would be like "well we don't like yeu... but hei whotever, do yeur own thing, yeu're not hurting anyone". They could coexist, and continue to provide benefits for each other, despite the fact that they may not like each other.

    Instead, we have people who feel it is their god given right, nay, their duty, to enforce their beliefs upon others. They HAVE to enforce their hatred of gays, for they don't deserve to exist peacefully. They HAVE to go on a serial killer's rampage and kill 57 hookers they deem as 'evil'. They HAVE to go and just insist that everyone can't get along and there must be direct conflict...

    Honestly, economically we'd be better off without such; as soon as yeu're intolerant of someone, or a group of people, those individuals can no longer purchase from yeu. They can't provide goods or services back to yeu. Yeu no longer have a working relationship because yeu just can't tolerate their existence, and are willing to shoot yeurself in the foot to show just how dedicated yeu are towards hating them.

    Tolerance allows people who hate each other or don't agree to continue to exist together and still interact peacefully, and maintain a give/take relationship despite that fact. Once yeu loose tolerance, it just breaks down; either it becomes "take take take" or "I refuse to accept anything they have".

    There are people out there that're so intolerant that they would sooner die of starvation than accept a meal offered freely out of the kindness of someone they just can't stand.

    How does this help anyone? It really doesn't.

    And yes, the world isn't that nice of a place. It sadly doesn't work. Because we really are so stupid that we will destroy ourselves and everyone around us just because we can't shut our mouths and get along.

    Yeu don't have to LIKE someone to do business with them... that's tolerance right there. It works quite well, until one side goes and screws everything up.

  2. #52
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Tolerance ance be defined many ways.

    In a utopian sense it is one's capacity to set aside their negative feelings for another and to continue to behave towards them in a civilized manner.

    Now, motivation for tolerance, that is an entirely different issue.

    Maybe person "A" tolerates people for the sake of trying to be a good and understanding person, while person "B" tolerates people only long enough to get what they want out of them, and then free themselves from being bound by tolerance once their objective is achieved.

    Does that make sense?
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  3. #53
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    And that is when we come down to the basic core of letting others show their values and applying whot they show they believe to themselves.

    If they show no value for life, then there's nothing wrong in killing them off, as they obviously don't care. If they steal others' possessions, then they do not have value on personal property and their own may be destroyed or taken at will.

    Until someone does something to show such, however, if they are tolerant of others' beliefs and do not attempt to force their own in place with the assumption that theirs are more 'right' (for example, the belief that they think the other person should die, and they feel that their opinion holds more weight than that person's opinion they should live), so long as they are accepting that others' beliefs can coexist beside theirs without conflict, then they are entitled to be left alone.

    The only times yeu ever see a problem with this, anyway, are the times when one group just flat out becomes intolerant to large degree in the first place. For example, when the KKK decides to actually act out against black people. Sure, yeu have the right to hate them to the core... yeu just don't have the right to do anything about it. That's whot tolerance truly is... accepting that 'well maybe they're right, maybe I'm right, it doesn't matter, let's just agree to disagree and stay the hell away from each other'.

    When that breaks down, that's when yeu get situations which cause the things yeu mentioned, such as the world not being nice enough for this to work... or the pirates...

    In a truly tolerant world, christians would still hate gays, but would be like "well we don't like yeu... but hei whotever, do yeur own thing, yeu're not hurting anyone". They could coexist, and continue to provide benefits for each other, despite the fact that they may not like each other.

    Instead, we have people who feel it is their god given right, nay, their duty, to enforce their beliefs upon others. They HAVE to enforce their hatred of gays, for they don't deserve to exist peacefully. They HAVE to go on a serial killer's rampage and kill 57 hookers they deem as 'evil'. They HAVE to go and just insist that everyone can't get along and there must be direct conflict...

    Honestly, economically we'd be better off without such; as soon as yeu're intolerant of someone, or a group of people, those individuals can no longer purchase from yeu. They can't provide goods or services back to yeu. Yeu no longer have a working relationship because yeu just can't tolerate their existence, and are willing to shoot yeurself in the foot to show just how dedicated yeu are towards hating them.

    Tolerance allows people who hate each other or don't agree to continue to exist together and still interact peacefully, and maintain a give/take relationship despite that fact. Once yeu loose tolerance, it just breaks down; either it becomes "take take take" or "I refuse to accept anything they have".

    There are people out there that're so intolerant that they would sooner die of starvation than accept a meal offered freely out of the kindness of someone they just can't stand.

    How does this help anyone? It really doesn't.

    And yes, the world isn't that nice of a place. It sadly doesn't work. Because we really are so stupid that we will destroy ourselves and everyone around us just because we can't shut our mouths and get along.

    Yeu don't have to LIKE someone to do business with them... that's tolerance right there. It works quite well, until one side goes and screws everything up.

    Or until pirates start to steal shipments.

  4. #54
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yvonne View Post
    ^ that's such a strange logic

    there are other ways to deal with people you can't tolerate than wiping them out
    Well one of the reason s why I have opened his thread is because I am fascinated with how fast people are ready for tolerance.

    In a way from my perspective this looks like some sort of a taboo. (and I don't like those)


    However I understand that combination of my forum name and this topic give a "creepy vibe". (I presume)

  5. #55
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    ^ no, i mean... if you want to talk about something, i'll listen.
    Enneagram 5w4.

  6. #56
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yvonne View Post
    ^ no, i mean... if you want to talk about something, i'll listen.
    Well in post 32 you have my main question / argument. The reason why I have opened this thread is because I am asking what will we do when tolerance will no longer be a practical option.

  7. #57
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Tolerating the Intolerant

    Liberal democracy is based on freedom of speech. And freedom of speech is based on tolerance.

    The problem comes when we are asked to tolerate the intolerant.

    In 1951 we were asked by national referendum whether we wanted to ban the intolerant Communist Party of Australia. And we voted not to ban the Communist Party. And it turns out it was the right decision at the time.

    However I think each decision whether to tolerate the intolerant must be made on a case by case basis.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Zangetshumody's Avatar
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    I'm very surprised no one has distinguished between two very different senses tolerance could be used in...

    Political tolerance;- that which underpins an open society, indispensable to any kind of freethinking and individual integrity.

    An individual's disposition toward another individual's freedom to hold an opposing ideology.

    And then a third type which it seems to me has nothing to do with real tolerance but with which it is being confused:

    An individual's personal belief in a sort of pluralism, in which everything is permissible and the only thing forbidden is that which would discern delimitations and seek to impose them through the force of argument.

    edit:

    Just to join the dots for you, it would seem quite obvious why tolerance is necessary, as without it, people are not going to generate or face a wealth of thought which one might be prone to adopt. Intolerance limits variance from orthodoxy which would also mean it stifles potential for the most robust growth and development.
    Escape powerful genjitsu by averting your gaze from the eyes.

  9. #59
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    why should we have to?

  10. #60
    movin melodies kiddykat's Avatar
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    ^Yeah.. I don't know for whatever reason, the word 'tolerance' to me gives me vibes of really linear-type thinking. Sorry to offend anyone. I didn't read through the entire thread. It's just something that's always kinda.. been in the back of my mind.

    In response, my motto is: "Embrace diversity." Maybe it's just semantics. That's just how I've always viewed it.

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