User Tag List

12311 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 112

  1. #1
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ENFJ
    Posts
    911

    Default Question for those who oppose same-sex marriage on religious grounds:

    Please do not take this as shit stirring. I'm curious.

    I understand that not every religion takes kindly to it. But if you're not being forced to marry same sex couples in your own church, mosque, synagog, what have you, then why the opposition?
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,630

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    Please do not take this as shit stirring. I'm curious.

    I understand that not every religion takes kindly to it. But if you're not being forced to marry same sex couples in your own church, mosque, synagog, what have you, then why the opposition?
    The answer's in your question.

    The point is that the goal of those pushing the issue is that it will be within every church, they arent content to live after their own fashion and let others live after their own, its a campaign to achieve universal acceptance, appreciation, support, endorsement, approval.

    Often its as a substitute for the approval they couldnt receive at home or in their own communities and that's so fucking neurotic, its impossible to satisfy and ultimately will send people insane because no matter how much legislation, change etc. there is they'll always be left with the suspiscion that some place some where the thought of their sexual behaviour makes someone want barf because that same someone thinks its abnormal, unnatural, perverse.

    This is part of the reason why I dont think this issue is anything like the half a dozen other minority-majority relationships or discrimination issues which its compared to, its nothing like the racial discrimination and black civil rights movements because they had a point at which they were prepared to say "OK, its done", at least some of their pundits where.

    For many conscientious objectors to homosexuality, including religious, its a water mark, how far are people willing to go to try and create an artifical consensus and enforce a political correctness or closed mindedness (yeah, closed minded, why is it not to suppose that everyone is latently homosexual when there is such a great number of people who are not and never develop that way?).

  3. #3
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    4
    Posts
    4,010

    Default

    Personal judgements, uncomfortabilities, opposition towards that which is not understood (ignorance), and people just being straight up heatless assholes. Don't let people tell you what love is. Fuck them.
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  4. #4
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,630

    Default

    Jesus!!

    Well, I'll not tell anyone what love is if they're going to fuck me if they dont like the answer!!

    Although what's the relationship between being cold and all this?

  5. #5
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/so
    Posts
    1,565

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The answer's in your question.
    Kind of ironic since you immediately head away from the original question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The point is that the goal of those pushing the issue is that it will be within every church, they arent content to live after their own fashion and let others live after their own, its a campaign to achieve universal acceptance, appreciation, support, endorsement, approval.
    The question was about same-sex marriage, not requiring universal approval. Trust me, I don't assume that everyone accepts, nor do I believe it possible to force people to change their minds. I do think that knowing ordinary gay people on a day to day basis does change some people's minds, but that's not something that can be legislated.

    The Catholic church has long had its own standards about remarriage and divorce. No one forces the Catholic church to accept divorced and remarried people, even though they are married in the eyes of the law. Why would same-sex marriage be any different?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Often its as a substitute for the approval they couldnt receive at home or in their own communities and that's so fucking neurotic, its impossible to satisfy and ultimately will send people insane because no matter how much legislation, change etc. there is they'll always be left with the suspiscion that some place some where the thought of their sexual behaviour makes someone want barf because that same someone thinks its abnormal, unnatural, perverse.
    Why all the charged language above? Why "fucking neurotic" and talk of making someone want to barf? My feeling is that the visceral "ick" factor does play a major role in opposition to gay marriage. That's not a political or moral argument, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    This is part of the reason why I dont think this issue is anything like the half a dozen other minority-majority relationships or discrimination issues which its compared to, its nothing like the racial discrimination and black civil rights movements because they had a point at which they were prepared to say "OK, its done", at least some of their pundits where.
    Do you know that it won't be enough? Does whether or not it will "be enough" have any bearing on the right/wrong/fairness of it? I don't think gay people here in Massachusetts are clamoring for additional rights from the state. I think most people in the state would say that allow gay marriage is total non-event that hasn't effected their lives for better or for worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    For many conscientious objectors to homosexuality, including religious, its a water mark, how far are people willing to go to try and create an artifical consensus and enforce a political correctness or closed mindedness (yeah, closed minded, why is it not to suppose that everyone is latently homosexual when there is such a great number of people who are not and never develop that way?).
    I don't think anyone is threatening your conscientious objector status. I support your right to not to participate in homosexuality or not vote for gay marriage. Nor do I assume that all straight people are secretly gay (any more than I'm a latent heterosexual).

    I don't understand why you find gay marriage threatening, though. It seems, from my perspective, like it has become a symbol for a whole cluster of your dislikes (victimhood, legislating morality, attacks on the Catholic church, etc.).

  6. #6
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    4
    Posts
    4,010

    Default

    Lark, I wasn't directing my aggressive post at you. No worries, it's all good bud.
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  7. #7
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    3,823

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    Please do not take this as shit stirring. I'm curious.

    I understand that not every religion takes kindly to it. But if you're not being forced to marry same sex couples in your own church, mosque, synagog, what have you, then why the opposition?
    I have always been pro civil union, and in favor of removing marriage out of the hands of government and leaving it to one's religious leaders. I think the second-tiered citizen issue between homosexual partners (in countries where that exists) is a human rights violation.

    -

    Can you imagine the mindset of someone who would be opposed to any sort of polygamy sanctioning? Because even if it doesn't affect them personally, it dilutes what they understand to be the bedrock of a healthy family, and therefore weakens society? Christians who understand the Bible literally are starting off with biblical directives and using (roughly) that worldview when they look at anything but the heteronormative nuclear family.

    (Just in case someone points this out: yes, there are religious figures in the Bible who were polygamous--that is kind of off topic to my post. Though if anyone religiously informed wants to discuss the polygamy issue I'd love to have a more complex discussion than someone saying, "well, just because they did it doesn't mean God affirmed it." IMO polygamy seems to complicate the notion of what a God-honouring marriage or sexual adult relationship is more than most think.)
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  8. #8
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ENFJ
    Posts
    911

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The answer's in your question.

    The point is that the goal of those pushing the issue is that it will be within every church, they arent content to live after their own fashion and let others live after their own, its a campaign to achieve universal acceptance, appreciation, support, endorsement, approval.
    The answer is not in my question. That's certainly not what I want. And it's not what the gay people who I'm close with want either. Actually, believe it or not, the gays I'm close with (even the ones who consider themselves Christians) keep a pretty healthy distance from the church. I want to live and let live. Honestly I don't even care if I can be married, I'd just like to be with the person I love.

    But hey, this isn't about me. So, as long as it's not shoehorned into your church, you don't care?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Often its as a substitute for the approval they couldnt receive at home or in their own communities and that's so fucking neurotic, its impossible to satisfy and ultimately will send people insane because no matter how much legislation, change etc. there is they'll always be left with the suspiscion that some place some where the thought of their sexual behaviour makes someone want barf because that same someone thinks its abnormal, unnatural, perverse.
    Those are some pretty venomous things to say, if you ask me.

    That said, I think you've got a point. No amount of legislation will satisfy an attitude like that. But I don't think that's why people are pushing for gay rights. I think if a direct dialogue is opened up (i.e. one that isn't filtered through mass media) a good amount of understanding can be had.

    Did I face adversity in my own community? Yes. Does that make me desire a legal requirement that every religious organization marry homosexual couples? No. That's going too far. Anyway why would I want to be married in a church that doesn't want to marry my partner and I?

    I'm not going to pretend that the group of gay people I keep company with are your typical gay people, because they're not. I don't know what the gay community at large is saying because I don't really seek out the gay community. All I see is what's on 24-hour news channels, and I take that with a grain of salt because I know it misrepresents gays as much as it misrepresents Christians, Muslims, and whoever it decides to shine its spotlight on. But the point is, those with whom I have directly interacted don't see the issue as "homophobia must be eradicated." They see the issue being, "a threat to liberty anywhere is a threat to liberty everywhere."

    What I'm more interested in is a direct dialogue. Person to person. Round table. As long as it's not filtered through mass media.

    What, Lark, would make you okay with gay marriage? There's got to be some common ground here.

    Hell. If nothing else, gays and Christians certainly share a sense of being under fire.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    This is part of the reason why I dont think this issue is anything like the half a dozen other minority-majority relationships or discrimination issues which its compared to, its nothing like the racial discrimination and black civil rights movements because they had a point at which they were prepared to say "OK, its done", at least some of their pundits where.
    I think there's more to it than that.

    I think the biggest reason it's different is because you can't tell who we are just by looking at us... most of the time lol. In a certain sense, anyone can be gay, wether they're gay or not. You, Lark, could go into a gay bar, pretend to be a gay man, and get away with it. Just as I could go into a non-specialized bar and have it be assumed that I'm straight unless I say otherwise.

    The other part is that the gay community isn't all that easy to quantify. What makes someone gay? Good question. It's certainly not just having engaged in homosexual behavior, as many men and women have done that once and never again. Then you get the gender-bender, self-identified straight men who like to get it on with guys every once in a while. Then there're bisexuals, then transgender, then questioning. The importance here is that the "gay community" is a living example of how the boundaries that we see in subjects such as gender and sexuality really only exist in our minds. And to see that is sort of threatening. I certainly felt threatened when I started to see the boundary of "Boys like girls | Girls like boys" dissolve in my own mind.

    Also, the reason we haven't said "okay, enough" is because we haven't really gotten what we've been asking for. And I'm not talking about curing every case of homophobia. That focuses on symptoms, not causes and it's unrealistic. I'm not looking for pie in the sky.

    I want to be able to live my life how I see fit. I want to live with my partner, perhaps raise a child, build a home together without fear that when we grow old we'll be ripped away from everything we've built or from each other. You know?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    For many conscientious objectors to homosexuality, including religious, its a water mark, how far are people willing to go to try and create an artifical consensus and enforce a political correctness or closed mindedness (yeah, closed minded, why is it not to suppose that everyone is latently homosexual when there is such a great number of people who are not and never develop that way?).
    I don't think the assertion is that everyone is a latent homosexual. I think the assertion is that sexuality is a dimmer switch, not an on-off switch. That said, it doesn't really matter to me. Some people have homosexual urges that they never act on and never admit to. Who cares?

    And I don't really care if people are politically correct. If someone has a problem with me he can remove himself from my presence. If he's got something to say, you can bet I'll have something to say back.

    So yeah, the question stands:

    What, Lark, would it take for you to vote yes on a hypothetical ballot that asks, "Should same-sex marriage be allowed?"
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  9. #9
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ENFJ
    Posts
    911

    Default

    *bump*
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  10. #10
    likes this gromit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    6,652

    Default

    We should just have ANY union in the eyes of the law be called a civil union. Churches shouldn't be allowed to perform those unions. A religious group can define marriage as they see fit (and it will be different because there is a varying degree of tolerance depending upon the religion), but it won't be legally binding.

    That seems like the only solution that can address most of the concerns of both sides.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

Similar Threads

  1. Questions for those who are completely SURE of their type
    By Such Irony in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 06-15-2013, 11:49 PM
  2. Support for Same-Sex Marriage Climbs to New High
    By Totenkindly in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 299
    Last Post: 06-26-2011, 10:43 PM
  3. Replies: 14
    Last Post: 04-25-2009, 03:19 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO