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  1. #41
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    Your understanding is wrong, I assure you.
    Although it's the typical junk that gets spread around in those circles (I had to listen to it for years, until I started actually looking for information apart from what I was being hand-fed), so I guess it's somewhat understandable...

    I know quite a number of monogamous gay marriages who have been together for years and decades, raising kids, the whole bit, even though they haven't even had the decency of official recognition by their society. In some ways that's even more admirable than het marriages, where you can become sort of legally "trapped" by getting married and you can't get out easily even if you'd like to, so instead of breaking up you just fool around on the side. And yet they'd still want to take on that onus, in order to declare their monogamous commitment to each other... Makes you wonder.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #42
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Although it's the typical junk that gets spread around in those circles (I had to listen to it for years, until I started actually looking for information apart from what I was being hand-fed), so I guess it's somewhat understandable...
    I understand. The comment was simply so ignorant, I had to say something.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  3. #43
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    I understand. The comment was simply so ignorant, I had to say something.
    My calmness of my response does not match the level of distaste I experienced when reading it, let me assure you.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #44
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    My calmness of my response does not match the level of distaste I experienced when reading it, let me assure you.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  5. #45
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Where did you get this idea? I'm aware that some Christian propaganda says things along these lines, but my understanding is that it's incorrect. Some of them, sure - just like some heterosexual marriages. "Most", absolutely not.

    Please at least source these controversial ideas if you're going to state them as fact and then use them to "support" your argument.
    Many Successful Gay Marriages Share an Open Secret - NYTimes.com

    50% were open about "cheating."

  6. #46
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    1 - 50% isn't "most". Certainly not valid to say those 50% speak for all marriages.
    2 - this study was done in San Francisco which is arguably the place in the world most likely to have open relationships due to the culture in that area and the kinds of people that move there as a result..I would suspect texans, for example, would be more monogamy-focused.
    3 - no mention of the percentage of straight couples that have open relationships in san francisco.

    I would agree with you that open relationships are probably more common in gay populations but I think you're grossly overstating things. I'm also not even mentioning your inherent assumption that open marriage is a bad thing.
    -end of thread-

  7. #47
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    San Francisco?

    ... yes, I wouldn't quite call that a random cross-section sample of the United States, honestly. Wow.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #48
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Sorry Jennifer I never meant to ignore you I just somehow missed this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    At that point, it's an issue between christian homosexuals and the denominations, NOT homosexuals in general and the legal system.
    I couldn't disagree more. The state has a vested interest in the sanctity of marriage. Because the state has a vested interest in the stability of society and marriage is the core building block of society.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    While I respect how you state things (you're very civil and decent about it, thank you), and while I totally get where you're coming from (for a portion of my life, I would have made the same argument.... and did) and can respect what you are saying, I just no longer believe the church has any right to be legislating morality of this level. It runs as anathema to the practices of Jesus, he did not respond to sin in society in this manner whatsoever.
    I concede that Jesus dealt largely with how humanity should deal with one another on an interpersonal level. You admit yourself that I'm dealing with people in a civil and decent manner... so I'm not contradicting the teachings of Jesus. Simply because he focuses on one area does not abrogate God's teachings in other areas. I think the clear teaching in Scripture is that the state has an obligation to be in submission to God's law. As Abraham Kuyper once said: "There is not a square inch in the whole domain of our human existence over which Christ, who is Sovereign over all, does not cry: 'Mine!'"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I view this as an outcropping of a moralistic subculture that feels ultimately that it is responsible for controlling other people's behavior in order to "save/protect the world for God" ... as if God is not capable of defending Himself by reaching people in personal and internal ways directly, changing hearts rather than imposing regulations.
    You are probably right about this to a certain extent. But, I don't consider myself part of that sub-culture or oppose same-sex marriage on this basis. The bible is clear the law does not change people's behavior, nonetheless a Godly people will uphold civil laws that are consistent with God's law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    i also feel that you are taking advantage of a culture that in general has tried to respect your freedoms as a citizen, rather than decide that your "faith" is harmful to your marriages, children, and interaction with other people (since it can drive a host of various abuses as it has been practiced, and some people would see it as a patriarchal mess, creating misogyny, teaching false science, dumbing down kids, etc), and thus seek to pass legislation against your faith so that it no longer harms others in this society.

    Spin it around, and see how if others followed your reasoning, you might find your own rights and personal beliefs and way of life threatened. You are taking advantage of a free culture to try to limit the ability of others to act freely. Does that put anything in perspective? Do you believe that is consistent or moral? Your personal values, as objective as you believe they are, are often no more objective than other people's personal values, and they are extending you more space to live as you wish, while you are not responding equitably.
    Now this I really take issue with. You have things completely backwards. It's my faith, the faith of Luther, the faith of Calvin, the faith of the puritans, the faith of the founding fathers that brought about freedom in the United States. Harold Berman, who was an extremely well respected professor at Harvard Law, has made it abundantly clear that the western legal tradition was born out of christianity and not out of enlightenment thinking. If the culture turns its back on the laws of God than it turns its back on liberty.

    Moreover the idea that the opposition is treating me well is absurd. It is clear that many left wing groups want to extinguish christianity from society. This is especially true in Europe... and they are succeeding.

    Your presumption that the government can behave neutrally toward religion is flat out wrong. The state is either in subjection to God or it is at enmity with God, there is no in between.


    This really needs to be my last post on the subject... I have two weeks of finals coming up. But, I should return with a more nuanced understanding of my own position given that I'm writing a 25 page paper on what a state organized by christians should look like.

  9. #49
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    1 - 50% isn't "most". Certainly not valid to say those 50% speak for all marriages.
    50% are in open relationships... Obviously some portion of the other 50% are not monogamous and not open about it.


    It doesn't bother me if I'm wrong about it being "most." It's still a large percentage.

    seriously last post.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    Please do not take this as shit stirring. I'm curious.

    I understand that not every religion takes kindly to it. But if you're not being forced to marry same sex couples in your own church, mosque, synagog, what have you, then why the opposition?
    no offense, but it's creepy ...

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