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  1. #21
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Lol. I hope you realize how silly this argument is. We don't base laws on the psychological effect they will have on the criminal. I could make the same argument against theft laws. We shouldn't have theft laws because somebody who is has not eaten for two days may steal something and then kill themselves because they feel guilty.

    Your arguing backwards from effect to principle your also using inductive reasoning. This is a very poor way to set up a society. You can end up with whatever general principles suit your fancy this way.

    The better way is to start with a set of principles... say Love the Lord with all your heart and do unto others... than deduct from those general principles the first four commandments of the decalogue from the former and the last 6 commandments from the latter. Then you can continue down from there. That is a stable standard of law.

    Even if you disagree with the Bible at least the reasoning is more sound.
    Civil laws are based on morality to a certain extent, but perhaps to a greater extent they are intended to preserve order in a society.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  2. #22
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Lol. I hope you realize how silly this argument is. We don't base laws on the psychological effect they will have on the criminal.
    "lol"? you're the one that's calling adulterers "criminals"... as if it were already so.

  3. #23
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Lol. I hope you realize how silly this argument is. We don't base laws on the psychological effect they will have on the criminal. I could make the same argument against theft laws. We shouldn't have theft laws because somebody who is has not eaten for two days may steal something and then kill themselves because they feel guilty.

    Your arguing backwards from effect to principle your also using inductive reasoning. This is a very poor way to set up a society. You can end up with whatever general principles suit your fancy this way.

    The better way is to start with a set of principles... say Love the Lord with all your heart and do unto others... than deduct from those general principles the first four commandments of the decalogue from the former and the last 6 commandments from the latter. Then you can continue down from there. That is a stable standard of law.

    Even if you disagree with the Bible at least the reasoning is more sound.
    I agree with the point being silly, but I also totally disagree with the set of principles being used of "love the lord" being a good starting point... it assumes basing a law on religion which's been shown pretty consistently in the past to be a fairly bad idea as there's pretty much nil for any truth or justice in it.

    Especially when a few of the commandments are kinda... iffy at best. Things like "honour yeur father and mother" really don't work in abusive situations. If yeu read through the bible fully, yeu actually see examples of where murdering yeur children or pimping them off, or selling them as slaves is perfectly acceptable, and they still have to honour yeu or the punishment is death.

    Furthermore, silly things like "thou shalt not covet" is just foolish at best. Yeu can covet all yeu want; yeu just can't ACT upon it. If we went by the 10 commandments as law, we'd have thought police beating people senseless or killing them just on the off chance they MAY have been thinking something they shouldn't've been.



    If yeu want a good place to start, those aren't really it. Yeu'd probably be better off with something like "Do not impose yeur beliefs upon others" as the starting point, from which all other crimes can be derived from, from theft to murder, each applies. Victimless crimes, however, do not get covered by such, as they're stupid in the first place and shouldn't've existed to start with.

  4. #24
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    "lol"? you're the one that's calling adulterers "criminals"... as if it were already so.


    It was your hypothetical.

    Your cheap shots are actually kind of entertaining. I really don't mind them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    I agree with the point being silly, but I also totally disagree with the set of principles being used of "love the lord" being a good starting point... it assumes basing a law on religion which's been shown pretty consistently in the past to be a fairly bad idea as there's pretty much nil for any truth or justice in it.
    Its a good starting point for determining what is God's Law. Now what laws are within the jurisdiction of the state to enforce is another matter altogether.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    Especially when a few of the commandments are kinda... iffy at best. Things like "honour yeur father and mother" really don't work in abusive situations. If yeu read through the bible fully, yeu actually see examples of where murdering yeur children or pimping them off, or selling them as slaves is perfectly acceptable, and they still have to honour yeu or the punishment is death.
    I am fully aware of all the "awful" things in the bible. None of it bothers me no matter how you characterize it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    If yeu want a good place to start, those aren't really it. Yeu'd probably be better off with something like "Do not impose yeur beliefs upon others" as the starting point, from which all other crimes can be derived from, from theft to murder, each applies. Victimless crimes, however, do not get covered by such, as they're stupid in the first place and shouldn't've existed to start with.
    That is a self limiting law. If that was the law then you could have no government. You could only have anarchy, because the state wouldn't be able to impose its views on anyone. It couldn't impose its belief that murder is wrong on people who commit murder because murderers think murder is ok.

    Gromit: Good thoughts. I'll have to get back to you I haven't slept for 36 hours.

  5. #25
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    it's cool if you don't mind. but they are not cheap shots. you mischaracterize me. "the devil is in the details", that's all i'm trying to say. i think you paint with too broad a stroke. i've seen good and bad things play out from ideals like yours.. nothing's ever simple.

  6. #26
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    it's cool if you don't mind. but they are not cheap shots. you mischaracterize me. "the devil is in the details", that's all i'm trying to say. i think you paint with too broad a stroke. i've seen good and bad things play out from ideals like yours.. nothing's ever simple.
    I'm an absolutist. I think God's law applies all the time in all places.

    But, Ill admit when imperfect people try to apply and execute God's law things definitely may go wrong.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Ming's Avatar
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    Default My arguments for homosexuality as a whole

    I guess it's finally time for a homosexual teenager to make a voice.

    I believe that the younger generations are so much more free about things. Through the expanding science, technology, information, knowledge, internet, media... We are learning so much faster and BROADER as teenagers than what people had access to before. There are so many great resources left for us to study. It's sometimes very hard to even imagine the vast world that teenagers are involved in at a click of a button... I have so many friends who search up on things which have no relation to them (eg, homosexuality), that I'm touched and amazed.

    Most of the adults (eg, the X generations/Baby boomers - That's how you call it in Australia) are still so stubborn and fixed in the world they have lived in as a child. Which I can't really disagree, because I would probably base my own experiences and view future generations with this standard of living that is being committed now. How many of you people have actually searched up on homosexuality? Before spouting your words, have you searched up what really happens to homosexuals world wide? Have you searched up the reasons why homosexuals seem to 'flaunt it'? Have you searched up what homosexuality IS? If you have then continue reading, if not, go and search it up for some basic knowledge. You can't argue without knowing the other side. A debate needs rebuttals, not just your own words. Nobody will recognize your views as real unless you KNOW what the other side is going on about.

    Anyways back to what I was saying. I don't know much about life, so it may seem I'm lacking a lot of wisdom that many older people have. I have a lot to say so bear with me.

    FIRSTLY, I WILL TALK ABOUT THOSE WHO ACTUALLY BELIEVE IN RELIGION. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE, YOU DON'T REALLY HAVE TO READ THIS, BECAUSE THEN THE REASON THAT 'THE BIBLE SAYS SO' ISN'T VALID. READ IT IF YOU WANT

    I understand the idea of religion and God. But do most of the people know that the first line of the old testament, Genesis, is not 'the God created the heavens and the Earth'; it actually is the 'the GODS created heavens and the Earth'. There is not just one God, but many. So firstly, to believe in a religion, you must first commit to the point that there are many Gods. NOT JUST YOURS.

    Anyways to continue on.

    There are 12 mentions in the bible all together, and they are as follows:

    2 refer to rape (Genesis 19:5, Judges 19:22)
    5 refer to cult prostitution (Deuteronomy 23:17-18, 1 Kings 14:23-24, 15:12-13, 22:46, 2 Kings 23:6-8)
    1 refers to prostitution and pederasty (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
    4 are nonspecific (Leviticus 18:21-22, Leviticus 20:13, Romans 1:26-27, 1 Timothy 1:8-10)

    None of them refers to acts that are 'moral'. They are all about rape and cults, and the immoral side of life. None of them actually relates to love, nor the good things. None of them relates to the people who are homosexual and DO NOT commit immoral acts. There are NO condemnations towards homosexual love between two people. There are however towards rape and cults. Notice the difference?

    Jesus NEVER mentioned homosexuality. (We're in the new testament now).
    There is no mention of same-sex marriages or partnerships in the Bible, either for or against.

    The context of the bible is made at the time of the community it was in. Stop living in the past, and live in the present.

    Oh yea, just before going on, I'd like to make a point that the paragraph above was for people who BELIEVE the bible. I myself don't, and there are of course a lot of reasons against the bible. I will now go on about the issue of marriage, sex, and adoption.

    Homosexual marriage should be allowed worldwide, not just in specific nations/countries/states. I would believe so, because -

    1) Does not affect YOU. If you're not gay, no one will care. If you're gay, you wouldn't want people to destroy and anchor you either.

    2) If you read the section about the bible, then the 'cause the bible says so' is invalid.

    3) Just because you think it's disgusting, doesn't mean other people aren't hurt by that. Or that people will agree with you. You're not the king of the world. Get real. We live in the 21st century now.

    4) There are so many homosexual marriages that have been successful. And have they done anything wrong? WHAT HAS HOMOSEXUAL MARRIAGE DONE THAT IS WRONG TO YOU?

    5) Because there are so many people protesting; so many homosexuals fighting for equality. If you support equality, then you should support this. This kind of discrimination should be abolished.

    Onto sex now! (For a teenager that's a must, haha!); Sorry it's a bit crude, but I like straight-forwardness.

    Sex really isn't such a big issue. If you're Christian, and you believe it is immoral, refer to the section above again.

    The argument of 'males/females were made for each other, not two of the same gender' is invalid. And why? Here are some MORE reasons.

    1) Puh-leaze, if males and females were made for each other, then why are there gays and lesbians. This one's probably the most obvious.

    2) How many people have you known that are actually with the opposite sex because their bodies were 'made for each other'. You base it on the mind, or looks, or something unique. You don't just base it on the penis or the vagina. Seriously peoples..

    3) Then why are men attracted to lesbian porn, and maybe women are attracted to gay porn. You guys should be 'disgusted' because they're not 'made for each other'. Get real.

    4) Your penis wants to get hard when it is stimulated. If you didn't know who was wanking you, I'm pretty sure you'd have an orgasm. Same with women and their vaginas. So your sexual organs were not made for each other. Just to be touched. It's got nothing to do with the opposite sex.

    5)Why do you perform oral sex then. Aren't they not 'meant for each other'. Why perform a boob job, or something like that?

    6) The sex works, so why worry? I mean c'mon, it's all a penis and a hole. Except for lesbians, they have it tough... But so does impotent people?

    Sorry for all that rudeness. If I don't make it real and right, men won't get it. Anyways onto children now, and its own issues.

    There are no differences between a child and having a maternal influences and a paternal influence than having 2 paternal/maternal influences. Firstly, before you even begin reading, go to your child and ask this question.

    'If I were of the opposite sex, will you still see me as a 'parent?'. Will you still love me as I am?'

    Ask that. Then you might just realize.

    If that doesn't work, then here are some reasons why homosexual adoption and/or homosexuals raising children should be allowed.

    1) It's the environment that condemns the child. If NO ONE labels homosexuality as an 'abomination', will it really affect whether you need to have one mom and one dad?

    What I'm trying to say is that if no one abused you, no one had a negative influence and though it was alright, would you need to just only have 'one mom and one dad'. Are they really needed? Why aren't single parented children any different? They didn't have 'one mom and one dad'. Why are orphans any different? They still seem cool.

    And people refer gays as 'pedophiles'. They're not. The ratio of heterosexual people to homosexual people who are 'pedophiles' are 250:1. It's ironic how heterosexual like to push their problems onto homosexuals, just like everything else.

    2) Adopted children need care. There are so many children worldwide that need love and nurture. If I was a child, and I didn't have the necessities that life needs to happen, I would run to the first person who would accept me. Screw it whether they're black, white, homosexual, straight, short, tall.

    Why should we abandon the rights to nurture a child? Why should we abandon the rights for a man/woman and hold a person in their arms? I can't even SEE why they are still like this. It's plain disgusting to me.

  8. #28
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    this is not complicated from a strictly functional standpoint. the anus doesn't lubricate itself, and we ought to be a lot smarter than sexually confused animals like Ming's avatar

  9. #29
    Twerking & Lurking ayoitsStepho's Avatar
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    I disagree with homosexuality, but you know what? Ultimately I just don't give a rip anymore. If you all want to marry, go for it. I'll even buy you a gift. That decision is on you and not me, so why should I care?

    We're all human and we all make our own decisions.

    If anyone wants to get into "religious" matters, let me just tell you that I choose to follow Jesus and love everyone no matter who they are or what they do. I don't have to agree with you, but I can still love you and just accept the decisions your making because ultimately it's your own choice, not mine.

    So if they want to marry, they have my blessings.

    Personally, I don't understand why some people get their panties in a knot over the homosexual issues anyway. Why is it that people want to scream and act like homosexuality is the worst sin ever. Good grief, who doesn't sin? I'm not saying it's right but why has this been made into such a huge deal? I don't see people holding rallies for children that don't honor their parents, or for those who break the Sabbath and ect.
    Heck, even "Christians"* who say all these hateful things towards these people are sinning themselves! Since when do we decide what sins are worse than others? A sin is a sin. We all do it, so even if you consider homosexuality a sin, I believe we're still called to love them and not hate them.

    *I wrote Christian in parenthesis because quite a few people out there claim to be one, but really aren't.

    Anyway, I suppose that's what I have to say on the matter as a Christian myself.

    I'm secretly afraid to write my opinions on these matters, strictly because I don't want to offend or hurt anyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    ayoitsStepho is becoming someone else. Actually her true self, a rite of passage.

  10. #30
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ming View Post
    Ming's massive posts
    tl:dr
    I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that he is a fraud, and I think despite all of his rhetoric about being a champion of the working class, it will turn out to be hollow -- Bernie Sanders on Trump

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