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What is the western equivalent of a Zen Master?

Lark

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Dont forget Paracelsis, his mystical, magical reputation is perhaps the closest to what I was talking about.

Perhaps the west, I'm thinking of the Christian west BTW, had a tendency to codify and create opec orthodoxy too quickly resulting in the eclipse of what I think of as Zen or similar traditions from the east by religious or canonical thinking/understanding.

Its difficult to discuss this because I'm not thinking about the thing itself, I didnt intend to discuss Zen (and I've seen some pretty unZen like discussions of Zen here before), an example were there is equivalence could perhaps be Budo and Chivalry or Knights and Samuari but even then in the west talking about martial artistry immediately brings to mind eastern martial traditions, dont you think? It could be the different relationships to traditionalism which each society and culture has.
 

miss fortune

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my first thought was the aesthetic monks who lived in caves and wrote long manuscripts on stuff and taught other people how to be good Christians at the time... I was going on the practical basis of comparison- master of the religion as opposed to looking at mystical aspects or anything :thinking:
 

LeafAndSky

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I'm enjoying everyone's contributions to this conversation. May I suggest that in matters of spirituality, there's no need to follow anyone or cite authorities. We are our own authorities.

Three replies:

Ken Wilber is an extremely well-known philosopher and integral theorist, and much of his work dealt with finding commonalities between different meditative traditions. Like many people, I am a fan of his work, and its often easier for me to quote or reference Wilber than to try to directly quote from Vedanta, or Buddhism, or Taoism, all of which I practice btw.

If ones definition of spirituality equates to narcissicism perhaps. If spirituality means the pursuit of inner wisdom regarding the transcendent, then an honourable attention to authority is necessary.

Only someone living in a Protestant country, and taking it for granted, could say that.

And Protestants, they tell me, are never more Protestant than when they are alone.

No one, for instance, would ever suspect the Lone Ranger of being Catholic.

We might suspect Shakespeare of being Catholic, but never the Lone Ranger.


Wow. Well, that got a reaction.:) Probably I should elaborate on what I meant. Not that any of you have to agree, even then! You can preface everything written below with "it seems to me . . ."

People come to the pursuit of spirituality -- or the pursuit of happiness or fulfillment or contentment or bliss through spirituality/metaphysics/etc. -- for many reasons. Perhaps they come because they've had an unexpected, overwhelming 'oneness experience' and now feel a drive to explore and to place what happened into some kind of context (or they want to know how to live in that kind of mode always). Perhaps they've had a life trauma that they need to process and get a handle on because otherwise they're going under. Perhaps they've been increasingly troubled by not being able to figure out Life, the Universe, and Everything. Etc.

There's no problem with exploring, reading. It feels, in fact, a privilege to be able to explore parallels between countless world spiritualities -- this is a relatively new development. Although, as Tolstoy lamented, maybe it would have been easier just to be an isolated-village peasant and not know all this 'stuff'.

But I do think that there may come a time (perhaps not for everyone -- who am I to say) when it's best to let the learning go and face the universe, or perhaps the void, while standing on the shoulders of a variety of giants if that's our modern lot, but still, in all one's aloneness.

There's a point at which we are, in fact, our own authorities. I'll omit quoting Emerson on the subject, or citing what people said of how Jesus taught them. ;)

The point is that there is no real Western equivalent of a Zen Master, that's why you couldn't name any examples. Hippies come closer than any subculture we have here.

Some things about the East are unique to the East.

I like that answer. Well, actually, a lot of the answers, but that one in particular. Western organizations enabling Zen masterhood aren't obvious, so our Zen masters (assuming of course that we have any, and in my opinion we do) would be scattered: sprinkled throughout different organizations and sometimes solitary. There are also the popular spirituality and neo-advaita crowds; I don't remember if those teachers or organizations have been mentioned in this thread, for example Eckhart Tolle or Byron Katie.

Anyway, sorry if I stepped on any toes. Go forth and read and cite! ;) Since there appear to be some here who have an interest in Christian mysticism or Christian 'other' -- I don't know what people may prefer to call it -- I'll add a couple of modern names in case people might find their insights of interest or of use (sorry if someone has already mentioned them in this thread): Bernadette Roberts (three books now I think)

Amazon.com: The Path to No-Self: Life at the Center (9780791411421): Bernadette Roberts: Books

and a friend, Raymond Sigrist

Amazon.com: In Love with Everything (9780741455994): Raymond Sigrist: Books
 
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phil_jackson.jpeg
 

Chunes

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I wonder about this, I recently talked to someone who about what they considered the gradual easternisation of the west, through lots of cultural imports, without hostility or anything, I love the same eastern cultural inroads and hope they continue.

However I dont think I can readily identify the western equivalents, magicians? Mystics? Scholars?

There is not a western equivalent. We chastize those sorts of people here and instead revere the CEO as penultimate before God Himself.
 

sLiPpY

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Oh, this one's easy. The Zen Surfer Dude colonies of California. Primarily comprised of ISTP's. Zen Surfer Dude

:newwink:
 

sLiPpY

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"Anyone who has ever spent time in the ocean, on a surfboard, in pursuit of the ultimate ride, has a basic understanding of Zen principle. As it relates to surfing, the Zen state culminates in the ride, on the wave, where all natural elements and human senses fuse into a spontanious transformation of (no) consciousness, experienced in an absolute timeless moment. Surfing echoes the rhythms of nature: always there, continually reoccurring, no two split-seconds are ever the same."

Zen of Surfing>CSUCI-What is Zen?

surfing-in-la-union-tour-packages.jpg


Zen! :yes:
 

LeafAndSky

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Yeah. The hippies and the surfers. I know some of the former, or former former, I mean former hippies. They grew up 10 years or so before me, I'm 53, and dang, some are the coolest, head-on-straight, unpretentious, startling, 'this moment' people, well worth spending time with and learning from.

Forget spending time on theological and philosophical fine points; :) where the 'Zen' hippies and surfers live is where the rubber meets the road! (Okay, really inappropriate cliche in multiple ways.)
 

Venom

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If ones definition of spirituality equates to narcissicism perhaps. If spirituality means the pursuit of inner wisdom regarding the transcendent, then an honourable attention to authority is necessary.

all 'real' metaphysical knowledge is narcissistic (self dependent). any organization that claims to have metaphysical knowledge provable to everyone is most likely actually engaging in pseudo science than metaphysics (for example, referencing skeptical evidence/historical "fact" is more the realm of pseudo-science than metaphysics).

are you forgetting about transcendental idealism again? :D aw shucks peguy...

lets review, shall we?

1. all Synthetic a priori beliefs (which all truly metaphysical beliefs are) are ultimately dependent on our own perception. They come from "subject" independent (ie before) of experience and are modified by "predicate" not simply built into the subject.

2. Scientific measurement (postriori synthetic) cannot support truly metaphysical beliefs (if they did, then they wouldn't actually be metaphysical beliefs).

3. Purely analytic philosophy of absolute necessities (a priori analytic) or of hypothetical (postriori analytic) cannot support truly metaphysical beliefs (If they did, they once again would not actually be metaphysical beliefs).

4. You can reject this system of categorization only if you wish to see "before experience" and "after experience" as non exhaustive, and additionally see "analytic" and "synthetic" as non exhaustive. Good luck with that...

:jew:
 

Mole

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People come to the pursuit of spirituality -- or the pursuit of happiness or fulfillment or contentment or bliss through spirituality/metaphysics/etc. -- for many reasons.

Spirituality is nothing less than our opium - the heart of a heartless world.
 

Mole

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I don't know you . . . what is your own spirituality like?

'Spirituality' is a New Age word that replaces the word 'religion'.

So the word 'spirituality' is politicly correct.

In fact 'spirituality' is a weasel word.

It is a word that places conformity above the inner life.

And I find my inner life is a bubbling spring of delight that wants nothing less than spontaneity.
 
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