What is the western equivalent of a Zen Master?

[Scott N Denver]

I suppose I could have said Taoist imortal or Taoist Monk but there were western monks and western saints could have the same miraculous powers as the Taoist imortals, I mean it in the historical and philosophical senses I suppose, possibly, or maybe even the function too.

If we want to make a list of [semi-]similar mystical traditions I would start with: hindusim-Vedanta, Buddhism, Taoism, Kabbalah, Gnostic Christianity, and Sufiism. And yes there were, and presumably still are, western saints and enlightened people. They weren't treated as well as in the East though [cough "burned at the stake" cough], apparently saying "God and I are one" isn't so kosher in the monotheisms. For more detail, read Ken Wilber or works on "The Great Chain of Being", for example Huston Smith.

 

[Scott N Denver]

Have you come up with a description or definition that can be put into words?

"Zen is what happens after rational thought ends"

 

[Scott N Denver]

I would, just to be generous. But you didn't put the right animal in your avatar.

what does THAT mean??? :steam: <runs off to find kyosaku, ie "motivation stick">

"What is the sound of one hand clapping?"
"What is your Original Face, the face that you had before your parents were born?"
"It is just this, just this."
"Lots of space, nothing holy"-the 6th patriarch of chan/zen's response to the Emperor of China at the time when asked "what is enlightenment?"

 

[ragashree]

what does THAT mean??? :steam: <runs off to find kyosaku, ie "motivation stick">

"What is the sound of one hand clapping?"
"What is your Original Face, the face that you had before your parents were born?"
"It is just this, just this."
"Lots of space, nothing holy"-the 6th patriarch of chan/zen's response to the Emperor of China at the time when asked "what is enlightenment?"

I offer you a book, a comprehensive compendium of the accumulated wisdom of Zen. All the great masters of the ages have contributed their life's knowledge to it. It is the last remaining copy. What should you do?

Originally Posted by ragashree
I'm begining to wonder if anyone knows what Zen actually is...

Have you come up with a description or definition that can be put into words?

Here is my definiton.

 

[ajblaise]

Way to miss the point

I think it's a question worth taking a bit more seriously than that, though not an easy one to answer definitively, if there is indeed a definitive answer. At the moment I don't really know what qualities Lark would associate with a Zen master; without a clearer context there's not much point in me trying to make any definite suggestions, much though the subject interests me.

If it helps, I'm aware of a poster on this forum who regularly manifests a Zen- like approach. I have no idea whether this person actually has a philosophical committment to Zen or whether it's just their personality, however. I would suspect that either way they have a good understanding of the underlying principles of the philosophy.

The point is that there is no real Western equivalent of a Zen Master, that's why you couldn't name any examples. Hippies come closer than any subculture we have here.

Some things about the East are unique to the East.

 

[LeafAndSky]

I offer you a book, a comprehensive compendium of the accumulated wisdom of Zen. All the great masters of the ages have contributed their life's knowledge to it. It is the last remaining copy. What should you do?

It doesn't matter. You can throw it out or read it or bow down to it or give it to a friend or the library or use it for toilet paper.

 

[Scott N Denver]

I offer you a book, a comprehensive compendium of the accumulated wisdom of Zen. All the great masters of the ages have contributed their life's knowledge to it. It is the last remaining copy. What should you do?

It doesn't matter. You can throw it out or read it or bow down to it or give it to a friend or the library or use it for toilet paper.

Oh you beat me to the punch... I was going to say "ignore it" though

 

[ragashree]

The point is that there is no real Western equivalent of a Zen Master, that's why you couldn't name any examples. Hippies come closer than any subculture we have here.

Some things about the East are unique to the East.

Depends how you wish to define "equivalent". Mine certainly doesn't seem to be yours in this context, though the question was a bit hard to pin down in any case. I was going for historical significance and endemic cultural and philosophical roots. Parallels, not derivatives like those hippes The op after all was by implication asking what Western culture had that might be similar prior to the recent Eastern influence.

It doesn't matter. You can throw it out or read it or bow down to it or give it to a friend or the library or use it for toilet paper.

Oh you beat me to the punch... I was going to say "ignore it" though

*Applauds, with one hand of course, then sets fire to the book *

 

[Sniffles]

If we want to make a list of [semi-]similar mystical traditions I would start with: hindusim-Vedanta, Buddhism, Taoism, Kabbalah, Gnostic Christianity, and Sufiism.

Hesychasm would be a far better example from the Christian tradition than Gnosticism, as far as esoteric traditions are concerned.

 

[Scott N Denver]

Hesychasm would be a far better example from the Christian tradition than Gnosticism, as far as esoteric traditions are concerned.

Perhaps that may be, but I've never heard of them before. I was following Wilber and others in my selection.

Fwiw, Wilber chooses: Plotinus, Meister Eckhardt, St. John of the Cross, and St. Teresa of Avila [and Giordano Bruno] as examples of western mystics of different levels

 

[Sniffles]

Well yes there's a whole Christian mystical tradition that has nothing to do with Gnosticism. Gnosticism is a herectical form of mysticism largely, at least concerning it within the Christian tradition. There were non-Christian Gnostics, so in many ways can be seen as a different tradition of its own.

 

[LeafAndSky]

Perhaps that may be, but I've never heard of them before. I was following Wilber and others in my selection.

Fwiw, Wilber chooses: Plotinus, Meister Eckhardt, St. John of the Cross, and St. Teresa of Avila [and Giordano Bruno] as examples of western mystics of different levels

I'm enjoying everyone's contributions to this conversation. May I suggest that in matters of spirituality, there's no need to follow anyone or cite authorities. We are our own authorities.

 

[Scott N Denver]

I'm enjoying everyone's contributions to this conversation. May I suggest that in matters of spirituality, there's no need to follow anyone or cite authorities. We are our own authorities.

Ken Wilber is an extremely well-known philosopher and integral theorist, and much of his work dealt with finding commonalities between different meditative traditions. Like many people, I am a fan of his work, and its often easier for me to quote or reference Wilber than to try to directly quote from Vedanta, or Buddhism, or Taoism, all of which I practice btw.

 

[Sniffles]

May I suggest that in matters of spirituality, there's no need to follow anyone or cite authorities. We are our own authorities.

If ones definition of spirituality equates to narcissicism perhaps. If spirituality means the pursuit of inner wisdom regarding the transcendent, then an honourable attention to authority is necessary.

 

[Mole]

Shakespeare and the Lone Ranger

We are our own authorities.

Only someone living in a Protestant country, and taking it for granted, could say that.

And Protestants, they tell me, are never more Protestant than when they are alone.

No one, for instance, would ever suspect the Lone Ranger of being Catholic.

We might suspect Shakespeare of being Catholic, but never the Lone Ranger.

 

[Sniffles]

I'll never get those 30 seconds back.

 

[Mole]

Thomas Merton and the Electric Jug

Ken Wilber is an extremely well-known philosopher and integral theorist, and much of his work dealt with finding commonalities between different meditative traditions.

What is interesting is how much the mystic traditions of different religions have in common.

Thomas Merton, a Western mystic, recognised this and went to study Buddhist mysticism in Thailand.

Unfortunately he was electrocuted by an electric jug in Thailand.

Electricity of course is the life blood of the noosphere, so perhaps the electric jug was trying to tell us something.

 

[Amargith]

For those that wanna explore the prechristian version more:

Völva - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Druid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[ajblaise]

I'll never get those 30 seconds back.

..or the other countless hours you've spent trolling Victor.

 

[Ming]

Umm, can anyone explain to me what a 'Zen Master' is?