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  1. #1
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    Default Sex, God, and Self-actualization

    I'm hoping this gigantic wall-o-text is not so intimidating that it deters you from reading!

    This is a very wide-spanning idea so I will try my best to explain, please be patient with my limited vocabulary and word selection. What I would like is feedback, what relevance it has to you personal or impersonally, rational or emotional... I encourage everyone to contribute your thoughts and feelings on the subject.

    It starts with self-actualization. Anything a person does involves a motive that is somehow linked to what they believe will be self-actualizing. When a person commits a crime, motive is a big question... with theft, this is never difficult because the motive almost always boils down to tangible gain, and rarely would something personal like a grudge need to be considered. The reasons for murder are more complex, more often personal. The motive for rape is the intangible but very personal self-pleasure. Regardless, crimes are all forms of self-actualization that take a short-cut from society's typical, fair means of attaining the same outcome.

    Short-cuts allow us to get what we want more easily. We'd take a shortcut when traveling to save time, for instance. It follows that the motive for taking a shortcut is a perceived lack of resources. Animals essentially commit rape to reproduce, and homeless people beg for money instead of working for it, it's no surprise we often treat humanity's lowlife like animals. A rich man never needs to steal and a man who has lots of consensual sex never needs to rape. This means, the extent one will go to self-actualize depends on the [perceived] need to do so.

    Sex is, in my observation, the greatest motivator for humans because it's something we'd forsake all rationale to attain. Put it in the context of self-actualization and it's easy to see why--if self-actualization is the perpetuation of you, creating offspring with the most attractive mate is a means that will surpass even your own death making it an ultimate form of self-actualization. No wonder it feels so good to have sex and see your baby be born, considering the value in terms of self-actualization and evolution!

    God, spirituality or religion, is a topic that almost always disseminate into argument. But why is that, considering spirituality is a matter of hypothetical cosmic matters that don't play into our decision making process? Why are people so passionate about their children (creating and raising life)? Why is "The Sims" such a popular game? Why do surgeons, placing their hands inside a human body and preserving life often get a "God complex"? God, or in our case playing God, is the ultimate state of self-actualization. Depending on your perceived needs, we all strive to ourselves become God in a way. Near "god-like" power on earth through money and politics, "god-like" status through popularity and praise, self-satisfaction and self-perpetuation through sex appeal and sexual conquest, or what I've seen a lot on this forum, omniscience (NTs I'm looking at you!) often as a means to all the previous ends. The concept of "God" is universal and infinite in every sense, so there are far more manifestations, these are just some of the most common. They are all manifestations of the same human desire.



    If you're still following, I hope you're starting to grasp how deeply ingrained self-actualization is into the human psyche and, if you were like me, wondering more about the concept of self-actualization itself. The process of self-actualization begins with wanting. In order to attain something you don't already have, unless it is given to you by sheer chance you will first have to want it then earn/achieve it. To earn/achieve you will have to focus on your goal to some degree. The way people on motorcycles run into obstructions in the road is by first fixing their eyes on it... the head then aligns with the eyes, the spine and shoulders with the head, followed by the rest of the body and the bike itself since it is affected by how you lean. In larger spans of time, the fixation is not made visually but by the human creative imagination. "The Secret" and all sorts of self-help psychobabble are all founded on this same simple concept of target fixation.

    Have you ever met someone who was "happy go lucky", who, despite everything going wrong around them and in their life still retained a seemingly unshakable sense of joy? Ever find yourself envious of people who can enjoy the simplest pleasures? I know I have. The idea behind their behavior is that they appreciate what they already have no matter how far away that is from a state of ultimate self-actualization/godliness. You might call them stupid or foolish for what might seem like a lack of ambition relative to your own, but if you subscribe to the thinking that being realistic is a matter of seeing what is ("it is what it is"), then these people are the least idealistic because they are target-fixated on what already is--and as it pertains to them, what they already have.

    Consider for a moment your own consciousness. Everything you know and everything that is important to you branches from your conscious experience. If that is all that matters, then why are we all concerned with achievements conditional of society values rather than appeasing our subjective consciousness? Wouldn't a poor nobody who lives a life of complete happiness be better off than someone who is miserable but has it all? The answer is naivety, our ignorant consciousness placed in and so very often swept away by the power of suggestion, and believing that attaining as much of the limited resource that everyone else around us also wants is the key to happiness.

    This thinking, although wildly prevalent, is a deception. Just like a conman succeeds by distracting their target from what is truly valuable so that they might themselves take it, humanity is distracted by self-actualization. It is the moment that we turn away from reality, what is, what we already have to target-fixate on what we believe we want that we lose control of the only thing we can control (ourselves) at the mercy of everything we can't (ability to self-actualize which is contingent mostly on factors we cant control). The most powerful and capable struggle with this the most because they have the easiest access and thus temptation to target-fixate on wanting something more than that. True happiness is as simple as resisting the temptation to turn away from what already is in order to gain more, and ironically this attitude of greed is what leads to neglect and loss, while appreciation thereof leads to multiplication of what already is because it capitalizes the best on the natures by which the present reality were created.




    My personal take on all of this seems to suggest strongly that the concepts of human behavior development are explained in Biblical Genesis depiction of Adam, Eve, and original sin... the demonstration of human nature, ignorance and deception are the most resilient foundation for every other human behavior Ive seen to date, metaphorical or not. Of course, Genesis itself could be an explanation formed in self-actualization if it weren't for the fact that it effectively disables the tree of self-actualizing behaviors if it is not twisted or misinterpreted. I believe this is rejected due to a (very understandable) negative reaction to the deep hypocrisy in which it is presented, ala "There is no one righteous, not even one." (Romans 3:10). Personally, I think the spiritual realm transcends the tangible, human (thus, flawed) interpretations of it (including my own, of course) meaning so many of our concrete preconceptions of God and Satan, "good vs evil", up and down positive and negative, etc. should be considered illegitimate unless compared contextually across it's implied subject (humanity) as a whole and found to be fitting to the same degree of accuracy used in the scientific method. Anything so complex as the human dynamic is nearly impossible to understand (especially from a subjective perspective, being humans ourselves) but this is what I've been long considering since I was old enough to watch people and attempted to explain here.

    Naturally, any human perspective on the subject thereof is highly valuable, so please contribute! Also, I ask that you do your best to keep it respectful since this is a volatile subject... the human condition applies to all of us and conflict only reflects ignorance of it.

  2. #2
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    I love to read through this kind of thoughts. It is amazing how they are popping up with increasing rate. Maybe it shouldn't be surprising with the world in such a state. I am pretty sure that if anything is able to fix it, it is this. Letting go of it. It seems like the average consciousness is becoming philosophically more oriental. People are starting to be very aware of the pointlessness of it all and they need an alternative. Personally there are couple of things I find difficult with this idea of slowing down or stopping.

    1) I am somewhat afraid that my social life will become quite dull when all the other people still go on with their agendas. I need people in my life, and I am pretty sure I will want them more often when I don't fill my life with the stuff I must do in order to get somewhere. It seems to me like people have their "tribe" made up mostly of the people they work with.

    2) I would like to not be a total bum. I am confident I could get by smoothly working only one third of the year, but how do I get a job like that? You must be either completely eaten by the machine or then completely out.

    I know these practical things are really besides the point if you think enthusiastically about it, but I never really was much of an absolutist, so I keep looking for middle ground.

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    An ISTP with a "wall o' text!"



    It fascinates me to read post as such, having noticed it's a unique trait within the ISTP collective. Interestingly, the writing styles appear to be very similar among those who share that paticular attribute.

    The example of Genesis you've presented is largely how a Jewish individual might view it. More of a moral story vs. a literal interpretation. Eve goes to the garden seeking what she doesn't have, and had not previously missed.

    Most of my post family of origin life, a simple Zen view has evolved and developed naturally over the years. Primarily through the experience of getting to know myself well, secondarily reading thoughts and concepts that automatically make sense to me. How I want to live and be.

    Seems what's most important to me are life experiences that involve being completely and totally present in the moment. Sharing those experiences with individuals who enjoy them equally so. I choose to live very modestly so that I can afford to do the things that I love.

    Everything in life ebbs and flows. Every relationship in life comes and goes. Businesses open and close. Buildings rise and fall. Fortunes are gained and more easily lost. People who secure a place in history, eventually become footnotes or aren't remembered at all.

    I've noticed I am happiest when I can focus my attention on this present moment. The feeling of the patter of the keys beneath my fingers. The vibration of the strings as I play a guitar. The round of a golf club and the sound as it strikes a ball. Completely focusing on what someone else is saying to me. Actually, listening and giving them my complete attention.

    How often in a day do we actually give another human being our un-distracted attention? I'm not always successful in doing so, but marvel at how much richer and happy life can be in the moments I succeed in doing so.

    uh, I'll stop there for now. Time to take a few minutes and feel the patter of my feet. Going down the street in running shoes. Hopefully I'll get a great sensory experience out of it, like having a rabid dog chase me.

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    I didn't actually read the wall-o-text, but I presume from the thread title that I will become self-actualized if I have sex with a deity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    I didn't actually read the wall-o-text, but I presume from the thread title that I will become self-actualized if I have sex with a deity.

  6. #6
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    I've just recently been wondering about this sort of stuff, in light of Maslow's pyramid, with physical needs (including sex in some printings of it), security and love.

    It seems there is an instinctual survival/procreation need, yet the elements of this such as sex and comfort and ease wind up becoming ends in themselves, and a person dosen't feel content without them. I'm torn wondering which is really more pleasurable, the monogamous life I've had, which didn't even begin until late 20's, or the rich variety of experiences and partners beginning in the carefreeness of youth I heard and hear others talking about. But the bonding of monagamy seems to be more the ideal situation. And the ultimate goal of the union seems to be to produce the next generation.
    Not bonding, but jumping from different partners is more immediately convenient, as you do not have to become bogged down with the things that annoy each other for long, and you can have the excitement of a new pursuit all over again, and again and again. It can also spread the seed around a lot (fulfilling the same instinct), and the argument is whether the monogamous union is better for the children, or it doesn't really matter, and it only seems better, because that's what society was used to. I believe that the desire for convenience, and new conquest are also apart of the survival instinct. So there is no end to the resulting "moral/spiritual" debate as to which is the most ideal situation.

    It shows me that in any case, there is some disconnect between the way things are, and the way we want them, which causes what we call "pain", as well as "sin". Like we either begin craving sex too early, or we develop emotionally and intellectually too slow. We used to be able to get married in what we now consider early teens, when those hormones begin hitting with with such force. Our society simply became so complicated that it takes so long to learn all you have to learn to be fully mature emotionally/intellectually. However, the hormones didn't slow down with it. If anything, it's said that they've been sped up from all the stuff put in food now.

    Many Christians knock all psychology, and say all our pains are just from our own sin (like being hurt and abused would not matter if we "looked at the things that are not seen", and realized that we "deserve so much worse", but will be "saved" from it instead in "the afterlife"; and they can even use scriptures on persecution, but I believe the context was different, especially since they weren't as far removed in time from the appearances of God or Christ). To them, "sin" must be made to convey the most sense of guilt on mankind, and the point (whether expressed or not) is to use fear of the retribution we "deserve" to lead people to repentance. Any time anyone tries to "soften it down" by defining sin as something else besides legal guilt is accused of watering down the Bible.

    But it's true that the whole "disconnect" of nature is what causes sin. Nature is said to be fallen too, after all, and that is what causes both pain, and our inappropriate reactions to it which are what we call the "sins" (murder, rape, adultery, stealing, lying, jealosy, etc). The universe is the way it is, and originally deemed "very good". But conditions in it (including even the survival need in itself) cause pain and discomfort to man, and thus, all of creation appears to be "fallen". Pain is a negative indicator: that somethign is wrong, and so, with so much experience of something is wrong somewhere.

    This "afterlife" then ends up becoming described in terms of us either getting everything we want (at least in terms of basic survival/security needs; a world similar to this, but with total harmony, no tears, no need to strive for food, etc), or not wanting much of anything (just worshipping God). I've had to come to admit in recent years that we do not know what is after this. It could be something we would not even recognize as any sort of "existence".
    As it is, most of the scriptures used to describe Heaven are really symbolizing salvation in this life, even material pain and discomfort continue. That's why Christ said the Kingdom would begin "soon" (with people then, still living when it was to begin), not thousands of year later.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    I didn't actually read the wall-o-text, but I presume from the thread title that I will become self-actualized if I have sex with a deity.
    What's your schedule like?
    (Ps. Bring lots of offerings.)

    Quote Originally Posted by ericb
    there is some disconnect between the way things are, and the way we want them, which causes what we call "pain",
    Put another way, unfulfilled desire causes suffering. And a wise person knows what desires are better left unfulfilled ...and thus what suffering should be endured rather than alleviated.

    Many Christians knock all psychology, and say all our pains are just from our own sin (like being hurt and abused would not matter if we "looked at the things that are not seen", and realized that we "deserve so much worse", but will be "saved" from it instead in "the afterlife"; and they can even use scriptures on persecution, but I believe the context was different, especially since they weren't as far removed in time from the appearances of God or Christ). To them, "sin" must be made to convey the most sense of guilt on mankind, and the point (whether expressed or not) is to use fear of the retribution we "deserve" to lead people to repentance. Any time anyone tries to "soften it down" by defining sin as something else besides legal guilt is accused of watering down the Bible.
    The older I get, the less appealing and less authentic the punitive view of human nature seems to me. It's no way to view oneself or others, or to live positively.

    And you're right -- no, you won't convince them otherwise. They're at wherever they are at. They have to be where they're at right now. The trick is allowing yourself to venture forth yourself on the path you see as honest and right and true and good, without worrying about the ways they'll try to hinder and undermine and shame you for venturing out. Sometimes you just have to step out.
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    Offerings of what?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    Offerings of what?
    Surprise the goddess.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Cool, as long as I don't have to sacrifice a goat or a virgin or something.

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