Role of Religion

[Ming]

To me religion is like trying to relate the 4th dimensional world, a world that we ourselves can't comprehend as a whole, into our own three dimensional world. WE can say that WE ourselves have an idea, and know, or belief that something is of 'the truth' or the 'right', but we can not see into the other dimension, unless we were really part of it ourselves. It's like trying to be God, when you're human. Trying to comprehend the wordings, the works, the 'brilliance' of God, when we're not even there! It's like..talking about parallel dimensions, universes. It will never end, because there was no 'start' in the first place.

Am I just talking to myself here?

 

[Beorn]

To me religion is like trying to relate the 4th dimensional world, a world that we ourselves can't comprehend as a whole, into our own three dimensional world. WE can say that WE ourselves have an idea, and know, or belief that something is of 'the truth' or the 'right', but we can not see into the other dimension, unless we were really part of it ourselves. It's like trying to be God, when you're human. Trying to comprehend the wordings, the works, the 'brilliance' of God, when we're not even there! It's like..talking about parallel dimensions, universes. It will never end, because there was no 'start' in the first place.

Am I just talking to myself here?

I don't think full comprehension is a prerequisite for relation... but some experience is necessary.

I can't fully comprehend this world? Can you?

Yet I relate to this world just as I relate to the spiritual world.

The more I comprehend both worlds the better I am able to relate to both worlds.

 

[Craft]

My answer is answer(and quite a practical one). I tire of this "live ignorant" world.

 

[matmos]

Sometimes I can be slow on the uptake so could you do me the favor of explaining exactly what is your point.

We'll get there.

As a Christian I disagree with Jennifer's argument that spirituality is found from within.

She made no assertion. She presented two possibilities, a dilemma for believers like yourself on the nature of belief. Merely stating you "disagree with Jennifer's argument" does not detract from the fact that many people do experience religiousity internally. She is making a perfectly good point about the integrity of belief.

...I can accomplish the lowliest of tasks, such as picking up dog poop, for the glory of God, the most holy and righteous being in the universe. If my heart is aligned correctly and I do all things for the glory of God than the other material benefits may come... community, love, self-fulfillment.

What is your definition of a good deed? You seem to prioritise the praise of your god and mention the possibility of "material benefits". It's not unique to Christianity, but the thinking is flawed: if you grudgingly do a "good deed" purely to please your god, He might question the sincerity of the deed. True altruism requires no reward or recognition other that helping one's fellow man. Your heaven is no doubt filled with helpful atheists...

You imply that good things may come from deeds made in His honour. Yet many good deeds backfire or have undeniably bad consequences. You seem happy to give your god credit when the "material benefits" are forthcoming but don't acknowledge His complicity when things go terribly wrong.

But if your god can supply material benefits as a reward so selectively, then his powers of intervention are no better than random luck. And random outcomes are precisely what you might expect if He didn't exist at all.

Amongst other reasons, I seek after God because I want to be happy.

Good luck.

 

[Beorn]

As a Christian I disagree with Jennifer's argument that spirituality is found from within.

She made no assertion.[/quote]

Oh... I was confused when she said:

Spirituality is found from within.

She presented two possibilities, a dilemma for believers like yourself on the nature of belief. Merely stating you "disagree with Jennifer's argument" does not detract from the fact that many people do experience religiousity internally. She is making a perfectly good point about the integrity of belief.

It isn't a dilemma for me. That argument presupposes that there are only two sources of beliefs. Yourself and others. My point was that I believe that God himself is a third source of belief.

What is your definition of a good deed? You seem to prioritise the praise of your god and mention the possibility of "material benefits".[/quality]

A good deed is done for the glory of God. As I mentioned earlier I don't think its wrong to selfishly do a good deed for both the glory of God and one's own happiness.

It's not unique to Christianity, but the thinking is flawed: if you grudgingly do a "good deed" purely to please your god, He might question the sincerity of the deed. True altruism requires no reward or recognition other that helping one's fellow man. Your heaven is no doubt filled with helpful atheists...

As stated earlier in the thread I don't believe and altruism and I don't believe God expects men to behave altruistically. Moreover, I don't believe good works get you into heaven. I believe the sacrifice of Christ on the cross for the forgiveness of my sins is the only reason anyone is saved from God's wrath.

You imply that good things may come from deeds made in His honour. Yet many good deeds backfire or have undeniably bad consequences. You seem happy to give your god credit when the "material benefits" are forthcoming but don't acknowledge His complicity when things go terribly wrong.

You assume much about me. I'm a presbyterian and a calvinist. That means I'm radical enough to actually believe EVERYTHING the Bible teaches. I believe God is sovereign over all. Everything that happens on earth is because God decided that it should be so. Both the birth of a healthy child and the earthquake in Haiti happened, because God wanted it to happen. Ultimately, everything on earth both good and bad will be used to bring glory to God.

But if your god can supply material benefits as a reward so selectively, then his powers of intervention are no better than random luck. And random outcomes are precisely what you might expect if He didn't exist at all.

I'll concede that at times from my perspective what God does in the world can seem random. That doesn't prove he doesn't exist. Moreover, in the grand scheme of things there is much more order in the world than there is apparent randomness.

 

[matmos]

I'm a presbyterian and a calvinist. That means I'm radical enough to actually believe EVERYTHING the Bible teaches.

As you believe everything then the following words from Paul might be of interest?

And now stays faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
- 1 Corinthians 13:13​

A good deed is done for the glory of God. As I mentioned earlier I don't think its wrong to selfishly do a good deed for both the glory of God and one's own happiness.

You might not, but Paul has an opinion about that as well:

Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
- 2 Corinthians 9:6,7​

As stated earlier in the thread I don't believe and altruism and I don't believe God expects men to behave altruistically. Moreover, I don't believe good works get you into heaven. I believe the sacrifice of Christ on the cross for the forgiveness of my sins is the only reason anyone is saved from God's wrath.

I think your god does expect you to behave altruistically (see earlier comment). Paul seems to be saying without good intention, deeds are valueless.

And thou I bestow all my good to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
- 1 Corinthians 13:3​

And, as we know, charity comes before faith...

So, your expectations of what your god requires of you are at some odds to the writings in the Good Book you profess to believe in vigorously.

How do you explain this inconsistency other than the peculiarities of whatever strain of Calvinism you subscribe to?

I'll concede that at times from my perspective what God does in the world can seem random.

In which case He is irrelevant. The "seeming" part is in your head and others that share your views.

That doesn't prove he doesn't exist. Moreover, in the grand scheme of things there is much more order in the world than there is apparent randomness.

Your first sentence is irrelevant and your second so general as to be pointless. What does "order in the world" actually mean, for example?

Remember: your god likes a cheerful giver.

Stay cheerful, Beefeater.

 

[Mole]

...the sacrifice of Christ on the cross for the forgiveness of my sins is the only reason anyone is saved from God's wrath.

So the very basis of your religion is a blood sacrifice to appease an angry god.

Perhaps it would be simpler for your god to attend an anger management course.

 

[Mole]

The Toxicity Lies in the Dose

For religiously-inclined people:

What role does religion play in your life? What role would you say it plays in people's lives in general? Why are people religious? e.g. "gives me a sense of purpose," "gives me a sense of certainty," "inspires me to be a better person," "answers difficult questions," "gives me direction," etc.

The role of religion is defined in liberal democracy by the separation of Church and State and by the freedom of religion.

This is because the purpose of liberal democracy is the limitation of power - even the power of the Church.

But notice, liberal democracy does not seek to abolish power, but to limit it.

And at the personal level of the question, I would say that religion is very nice in small doses.

But the toxicity lies in the dose. And the higher the dose, the more toxic.

 

[Hate]

First I want to say that I completely understand the atheist perspective because I used to be one. I never flat out refused to believe in a God; it was simply that the logical part of my mind would not accept it. I always said that I wouldn’t believe it till I see it and lo and behold I ended up seeing it.

When I was 20 years old I started to develop bleeding in my stomach. Then at the age of 21 I was diagnosed with an incurable terminal stomach disease (A SEVERE case of chronic pancreatitis) and given between 5-7 PAINFUL years left to live. After five years of deteriorating from my disease I ended up meeting a Catholic spiritual healer that started talking to me about Jesus. He told me that he could take me through a spiritual healing process and that if I turned my life towards God that I would feel the healing power of Christ. I went through the process and as of October 20th, 2007 I have been completely healed. It’s a long story how this all happened , so this is just the gist of it. Since then I have become Catholic and now work helping other people who are sick. What happened to me is a medical impossibility; so if someones wants to see physical evidence of God’s existence then all you have to do is go and check my medical records.

What role does religion play in your life?

Religion saved my life. Without it I would be dead or doing life in prison. (oh ya.. I used to be a ruthless gangster too.. religion also gave me the moral compass I strongly needed.)

 

[cafe]

Beyond basic spirituality, religion gives me a system of life to work from. Christianity, and beyond that, Judaism have been around for a long time and in that time, there is a lot of accumulated wisdom.

I see no reason to either mindlessly follow any system, but neither do I find it necessary to reinvent the wheel. I mean, I do have a good, strong conscience and a decent mind, but I'm not Ghandi or Einstein and even if I was, I have only one lifetime to learn from personal thought and experience. I'm fine with borrowing wisdom from those who have gone before.

I guess I am also a bit of a mystic by nature and my early exposure to the life and teachings of Jesus kind of set my compass in that direction. I have little doubt I would be religious regardless of whether or not I had early exposure to religion, though, because even as a Christian, I tend to like Wiccans and appreciate what I know of their religion.

 

[Beorn]

I think your god does expect you to behave altruistically (see earlier comment). Paul seems to be saying without good intention, deeds are valueless.

And thou I bestow all my good to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
- 1 Corinthians 13:3​

And, as we know, charity comes before faith...

So, your expectations of what your god requires of you are at some odds to the writings in the Good Book you profess to believe in vigorously.

How do you explain this inconsistency other than the peculiarities of whatever strain of Calvinism you subscribe to?

You have not proven that charitable giving is equal to altruism which is the belief and practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well being of others.

Having the right intent and having no intent are two different things.

Charity/agape merely means to have loving intent. It does not necessarily mean you cannot have a selfish intent to seek your own happiness.

Altruism requires one to do something without any expectation of getting anything in return. Yet the very verse you point to illustrates that we reap what we sow and there is a correlation between how much we sow and how much we reap. So I don't think its wrong to sow more so that you can reap more. God wants us to sow with good intent, but I would argue selfishly seeking joy in God is part of that good intent.

The very fact that "God loves a cheerful giver" seems to indicate that he wants his followers to be seeking happiness in him as they go about obeying him. I don't think he wants altruistic robots do good for the sake of good.

In which case He is irrelevant. The "seeming" part is in your head and others that share your views.

Wow. You know with absolute certainty that if the biblical God does exist that what he does is totally random. That's quite a statement.

Your first sentence is irrelevant and your second so general as to be pointless. What does "order in the world" actually mean, for example?

Remember: your god likes a cheerful giver.

Stay cheerful, Beefeater.

The order in the world is self-evident. I don't even need to argue for it. If you cannot see it, than you are blinding yourself.



One last thought. Think about human relationships. Do you want someone to love you and to do good acts for you out of no self-concern? Personally I rather be in a relationship with someone who does good acts for me not only because it is the loving thing to do, but because she finds happiness in doing them for me.

 

[Mole]

In Holland the role of religion has changed.

From a ninety percent attendance at church, the churches are now empty and the Dutch believe religion is toxic.

And the Dutch no longer take even a prophylactic dose, so they have lost their immunity.

While the Dutch Islamists have taken an overdose and butcher film makers on the street and drive members of parliament out of the country and rape girls not wearing the hijab.

 

[Snoopy22]

Religion is how we show our faith to the physical world.

 

[gromit]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. This has been very helpful for me. I have some followup questions.

The religion I am a student of is unconventional but has an objective common among most religions: to live a more purpose-driven life (thank you Rick Warren for that excellent phrase).

For me, it is not for the sake of purpose, but because I believe in the purpose(s) of choice.

So, do you find the religious community helps/supports you in this endeavor? Is this why you participate?

I find it interesting that you're asking about what meaning it gives to life. In the end, it isn't so much of a "meaning" as an "attitude." It's a way of becoming. Ideally, it is something that brings you wisdom without having to endure the trials and pain that most people require to learn wisdom. And when you have that wisdom, that attitude, that faith, that is what enables you to endure through the bad times, and rejoice more fully in the good times. ... and actually I'm misstating that a bit there: it enables you to rejoice even during the bad times.

Can you explain it a little more? Do you think the "attitude" is specific only to people who are followers of a religion, or do you think it can be found the introverted way as well?

Are you asking why people are religious or why religious people think they are religious?

I'm asking why religious people want to be religious.

Amongst other reasons, I seek after God because I want to be happy.

I don't seek spirituality merely within myself, because in my experience I am a poor source of truth. I want my spirituality to be based on facts and truth, so I look outside myself. My faith community provides me with answers as to how to seek after and value God both in action and in word.

Do you feel like your own sense of God aligns almost perfectly with that of your faith community?

My answer is answer(and quite a practical one). I tire of this "live ignorant" world.

So how does the faith community/religion help you with your weariness? (sincere question)

When I was 20 years old I started to develop bleeding in my stomach. Then at the age of 21 I was diagnosed with an incurable terminal stomach disease (A SEVERE case of chronic pancreatitis) and given between 5-7 PAINFUL years left to live. After five years of deteriorating from my disease I ended up meeting a Catholic spiritual healer that started talking to me about Jesus. He told me that he could take me through a spiritual healing process and that if I turned my life towards God that I would feel the healing power of Christ. I went through the process and as of October 20th, 2007 I have been completely healed. It’s a long story how this all happened , so this is just the gist of it. Since then I have become Catholic and now work helping other people who are sick. What happened to me is a medical impossibility; so if someones wants to see physical evidence of God’s existence then all you have to do is go and check my medical records.

Religion saved my life. Without it I would be dead or doing life in prison. (oh ya.. I used to be a ruthless gangster too.. religion also gave me the moral compass I strongly needed.)

Wow. I cannot argue with it. Not that I want to argue with anyone who is posting on this thread.

Beyond basic spirituality, religion gives me a system of life to work from. Christianity, and beyond that, Judaism have been around for a long time and in that time, there is a lot of accumulated wisdom.

I see no reason to either mindlessly follow any system, but neither do I find it necessary to reinvent the wheel. I mean, I do have a good, strong conscience and a decent mind, but I'm not Ghandi or Einstein and even if I was, I have only one lifetime to learn from personal thought and experience. I'm fine with borrowing wisdom from those who have gone before.

I guess I am also a bit of a mystic by nature and my early exposure to the life and teachings of Jesus kind of set my compass in that direction. I have little doubt I would be religious regardless of whether or not I had early exposure to religion, though, because even as a Christian, I tend to like Wiccans and appreciate what I know of their religion.

Question for you: do you attend church? If so, how is participating in the church community different than following the teachings/ideals in the Judeo-Christian tradition? Do you need church to borrow the wisdom from those who have gone before?

(p.s. I don't know much about the Wiccan tradition either, but I do like ceremony and celebrations of nature and time. I hold observances on the solstices and equinoxes and find it very meaningful, especially a lot of the symbolism of traditions and stories associated with those holidays...)

Religion is how we show our faith to the physical world.

Why do you think we need to show our faith to the physical world?

 

[gromit]

Ha ha ha... perhaps I am somewhat ridiculous with this... I just want to understand.

 

[IZthe411]

My religious beliefs are a way of life, so they permeate everything about me.

 

[gromit]

Ok... another question.

The external search for spirituality, however, is just as valid as the internal one. You learn as much by sharing faith with others as you do by trying to discover the answers to your questions on faith within yourself.

It's not necessary to belong to a religion to do this though... so why organized religion?

 

[Mole]

My religious beliefs are a way of life, so they permeate everything about me.

For me, religion is poetry.

And I notice that poets create religion, prophets abuse religion and priests do it to death.

And like poetry, religion is very nice in small doses.

 

[IZthe411]

For me, religion is poetry.

And I notice that poets create religion, prophets abuse religion and priests do it to death.

And like poetry, religion is very nice in small doses.

Well put.

People do abuse it and use it to their advantage. Not all. That's the stuff that gets highlighted. There's less focus on the millions who, because of their beliefs, are better neighbors, coworkers and friends.

 

[matmos]

Charity/agape merely means to have loving intent. It does not necessarily mean you cannot have a selfish intent to seek your own happiness.

If you do something for selfish reasons (such as reward in the afterlife) then you are not being altruistic. But distinguishing a good deed done freely and one done selfishly would be difficult to discern - a job for your god, perhaps? That He may be familiar with Corinthians is a gauntlet you may have to run.

Altruism requires one to do something without any expectation of getting anything in return. Yet the very verse you point to illustrates that we reap what we sow and there is a correlation between how much we sow and how much we reap. So I don't think its wrong to sow more so that you can reap more. God wants us to sow with good intent, but I would argue selfishly seeking joy in God is part of that good intent.

I can except you believe this but fail to understand why.

The very fact that "God loves a cheerful giver" seems to indicate that he wants his followers to be seeking happiness in him as they go about obeying him. I don't think he wants altruistic robots do good for the sake of good.

Ah, an Old Testament man. Good. Please do bear in mind that this is your Bible, not mine. For your god is a socialist god, who cancels debts every 7 years and requires you to spread your wealth.

Wow. You know with absolute certainty that if the biblical God does exist that what he does is totally random. That's quite a statement.

Could you explain, other than "mysterious ways" how randomness in any way validates your belief in your god. If it looks random, and behaves randomly then it might as well be random (think of a duck). Irrelevant, as far as the man on the street is concerned. Maybe He is too big or even two small to notice his weird creations; maybe he's bored; maybe he decided to abdicate His powers and chill out?

The order in the world is self-evident. I don't even need to argue for it. If you cannot see it, than you are blinding yourself.

Well, I'll be charitable and assume our definitions of the word "order" differ. But, whatever your definition the perception of order lies with the perceiver, so I'm inclined not to call you out on anything other than your view that some ultimate truth has been made available to you and that those who cannot see this are blind. I doubt if your vision in these matters is any better than the next man.

One last thought. Think about human relationships. Do you want someone to love you and to do good acts for you out of no self-concern? Personally I rather be in a relationship with someone who does good acts for me not only because it is the loving thing to do, but because she finds happiness in doing them for me.

How can you tell? Really?