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  1. #71
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I know. I've been around it nearly forty years starting with my grandma.

    Honestly, it screwed with my head pretty badly and in order to overcome depression I pretty much just had to turn it off. I'm not going to subject myself to it week after week because I really can't.
    That's one of the things people fail to consider when it comes to why people are turned off to religion. Sometimes the families are worse than the preacher. And that can scar you for life.

  2. #72
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    The Unholy and Moral Courage

    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    If you believe in God, and you believe that God speaks through the Bible, and the Bible outlines what's acceptible in terms of holiness, then going beyond those terms can't be holiness, because at that point one begins to define holiness based on terms that deviate from the standard setter.
    Sure, some define holiness as wholeness. Some define holiness as integrity.

    And in a world where we are constantly learning new things, we are constantly seeking to integrate the new things into our whole view of the world.

    But perhaps the most difficult form of holiness is moral integrity. For moral integrity takes moral courage. And although physical courage is common, moral courage is rare.

    And the sister of moral integrity is intellectual integrity. And it is no surprise to find that is in rare supply as well.

    So with moral courage so rare, it is no surprise to find holiness is rare as well.

    The unholy of course seek to spoil the intellectual integrity and the moral integrity of the holy.

    But most of all, the unholy hate moral courage.

  3. #73
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    Across the world almost everyone is born into a religion. The number of converts is insignificant.

    But the problem is that the various religions are incompatible. So they can't all be true.

    Of course most religions tell you their religion is the one true religion. But with so many religions making that claim, it becomes risible.

    So unfortunately believing your religion is the one true religion, requires us to put our critical minds to sleep.

    This is achieved by putting the believers into a trance where their critical faculties are temporarily asleep.

    And a trance can be induced by any repetition such as religious ritual, or the repeating of religious dogma, or the repetition of religious feeling.

    Of course we are no different and create belief in MBTI by the repetition of the four magic letters.

  4. #74
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    That's one of the things people fail to consider when it comes to why people are turned off to religion. Sometimes the families are worse than the preacher. And that can scar you for life.
    Well, I will say in her defense that my grandma loved me with absolute devotion. She was the rock of my childhood and I miss her terribly eleven years after her death. If heaven is real and like I believe it to be, she will be the first face I look for after Jesus and my husband, if he precedes me.

    But she just had struggles of her own, just like anybody does. The problem with guilt and shame as motivators is that they either work too well or they don't work at all.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    I don't think full comprehension is a prerequisite for relation... but some experience is necessary.

    I can't fully comprehend this world? Can you?

    Yet I relate to this world just as I relate to the spiritual world.

    The more I comprehend both worlds the better I am able to relate to both worlds.
    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSKh4K6YVmQ"]Truth vs Fact[/YOUTUBE]

    My problem is that, in the modern world, many people attempt to merge truth with fact, and thus convolute the meaning of both and creating cognitive dissonance. Because truth is highly subjective, it is a daunting task to convince others and affirm a universal truth. Such is the case with Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Marxism, various philosophies, Buddhism, (you get the picture). And so we find that people will apply "truth" to the tangible world, like one will apply prayer to illness, and so it becomes - quite literally - an imaginary scalpel. Dangerous.

    I also find that we dehumanize others in the name of truth, the same way that the Nazis dehumanized the Jews by painting caricatures of them, the same way Christianity dehumanizes non-Christians by condemning them to hell, the same way Stalin executed enemies of the state. Forming universal truths that do not incite some sort of tribalism is like trying to mix all the colors of the rainbow in to one, while still maintaining the originals.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tater Typhoon View Post
    My problem is that, in the modern world, many people attempt to merge truth with fact, and thus convolute the meaning of both and creating cognitive dissonance. Because truth is highly subjective, it is a daunting task to convince others and affirm a universal truth. Such is the case with Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Marxism, various philosophies, Buddhism, (you get the picture). And so we find that people will apply "truth" to the tangible world, like one will apply prayer to illness, and so it becomes - quite literally - an imaginary scalpel. Dangerous.

    I also find that we dehumanize others in the name of truth, the same way that the Nazis dehumanized the Jews by painting caricatures of them, the same way Christianity dehumanizes non-Christians by condemning them to hell, the same way Stalin executed enemies of the state. Forming universal truths that do not incite some sort of tribalism is like trying to mix all the colors of the rainbow in to one, while still maintaining the originals.
    Natural Selection is a fact and it is also true.

    And Natural Selection can't be true for some of us and not for others. If it is true, it is true for everyone.

    The truth is indivisible - it can't be true for some and not for others. But this is precisely what religious Truth is - it is true for some and not for others.

    And usually religious Truth is written with a capital T, to distinguish it from truth with a small t.

    So religious Truth is privileged - it is the kind of truth you are having when you are not having any truth.

    Religious Truth is outside evidence and reason, while truth depends on evidence and reason.

    Modern medicine is based on evidence and reason, and no one goes to the Bible, the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita or the Analects of Confucius for medical advice.

  7. #77
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    But the problem is that the various religions are incompatible. So they can't all be true.

    Of course most religions tell you their religion is the one true religion. But with so many religions making that claim, it becomes risible.

    So unfortunately believing your religion is the one true religion, requires us to put our critical minds to sleep.

    This is achieved by putting the believers into a trance where their critical faculties are temporarily asleep.

    And a trance can be induced by any repetition such as religious ritual, or the repeating of religious dogma, or the repetition of religious feeling.

    Of course we are no different and create belief in MBTI by the repetition of the four magic letters.
    I agree with your beginning, disagree with the middle, and agree with the end.

    I agree that all religions cannot be true. If all religions were true (different roads leading to the same outcome) then where God is seen true for one he'd be a liar in another.

    So the goal should be to find the one that's true- not true in the relative sense, but absolute.

    And once you find that which is true, is there really a need to keep searching? At that point, everything else is false- worthless pursuit. Yet the critical mind will still be at work- because the truth when it comes to God is infinite- so there's always something to learn, and a need to figure out how this new knowledge connects with what you've already learned. Some of that new stuff has to be useless knowledge because it is out there in equal, if not in a greater abundance.

    “Keep testing whether you are in the faith, keep proving what you yourselves are.”—2 Cor. 13:5.
    Memorizing information is useless if you cannot apply it when test time comes. The pursuit of truth can't be reduced to empty rituals, chants and the like.

  8. #78
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Well, I will say in her defense that my grandma loved me with absolute devotion. She was the rock of my childhood and I miss her terribly eleven years after her death. If heaven is real and like I believe it to be, she will be the first face I look for after Jesus and my husband, if he precedes me.

    But she just had struggles of her own, just like anybody does. The problem with guilt and shame as motivators is that they either work too well or they don't work at all.
    Agreed!

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Natural Selection is a fact and it is also true.

    And Natural Selection can't be true for some of us and not for others. If it is true, it is true for everyone.

    The truth is indivisible - it can't be true for some and not for others. But this is precisely what religious Truth is - it is true for some and not for others.

    And usually religious Truth is written with a capital T, to distinguish it from truth with a small t.

    So religious Truth is privileged - it is the kind of truth you are having when you are not having any truth.

    Religious Truth is outside evidence and reason, while truth depends on evidence and reason.

    Modern medicine is based on evidence and reason, and no one goes to the Bible, the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita or the Analects of Confucius for medical advice.
    You're on the same page of the story, but arguing about the names of the characters, Vic. And so even semantics are a product of Truth vs. truth.

  10. #80
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tater Typhoon View Post
    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSKh4K6YVmQ"]Truth vs Fact[/YOUTUBE]
    unimpressed.

    To say absolute truth requires universal acceptance is absurd. This presumes that humans create truth. This means that the laws of gravity were not within the category of absolute truth in 100 AD.

    Moreover, the analysis of belief and truth applies to facts as well. It is a fact that there is a chair below me and that it will support my weight. But, I must place belief or faith in that fact before I sit down and the fact is proven.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tater Typhoon View Post
    I also find that we dehumanize others in the name of truth, the same way that the Nazis dehumanized the Jews by painting caricatures of them, the same way Christianity dehumanizes non-Christians by condemning them to hell, the same way Stalin executed enemies of the state. Forming universal truths that do not incite some sort of tribalism is like trying to mix all the colors of the rainbow in to one, while still maintaining the originals.

    Out of any system of belief christianity puts the highest level of value on ALL HUMANS. All humans are valuable because they are image bearers of God who is of infinite value. This value is inherent and cannot be taken away.

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