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  1. #61
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    Humans organize to pursue common interests. A group of persons interested in becoming holy can and will gather to support one another in their pursuit of holiness.
    Yes, I can see that. Do you think the gathering together in common purpose itself is a holy act?
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  2. #62
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    IZthe411, I would ask you the same question I asked Beefeater: do you think holiness can exist outside of followers of the Bible?
    If you believe in God, and you believe that God speaks through the Bible, and the Bible outlines what's acceptible in terms of holiness, then going beyond those terms can't be holiness, because at that point one begins to define holiness based on terms that deviate from the standard setter.

  3. #63
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Another question (for religious people): how is organized religion related to holiness, in your experience?
    I don't really think in terms of holiness a lot. I'm kind of a holistic person and don't make a lot of distinctions between sacred and mundane. Living a life that honors God, to me, is a whole piece of cloth that involves actively loving others and a discipline of the mind and attitude.

    A religious community could theoretically be very helpful with this -- people could encourage one another and could share perspectives that could help people be more aware of personal blind spots, etc.

    What I've seen irl is more along the lines of attempting to shame people into good behavior and I don't find that particularly helpful myself. I'm assuming it must be helpful or others in some way or I can't imagine why they'd keep it up.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #64
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    .

    What I've seen irl is more along the lines of attempting to shame people into good behavior and I don't find that particularly helpful myself. I'm assuming it must be helpful or others in some way or I can't imagine why they'd keep it up.
    That's always going to backfire. While some people's beliefs encourage that type of outlook, a balanced person recognizes that people have a choice to make. Consider the source as well; If well meaning person who has demonstrated their interest in your well being says something along the lines to 'shame' you, it could be that they are trying to make you aware of a potentially dangerous situation you're attempting- to remind you of the negative consequences. It's a case-by-case situation.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    If you believe in God, and you believe that God speaks through the Bible, and the Bible outlines what's acceptible in terms of holiness, then going beyond those terms can't be holiness, because at that point one begins to define holiness based on terms that deviate from the standard setter.
    Is that what YOU believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I'm kind of a holistic person and don't make a lot of distinctions between sacred and mundane. Living a life that honors God, to me, is a whole piece of cloth that involves actively loving others and a discipline of the mind and attitude.
    Yes I can relate to this...
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  6. #66
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Is that what YOU believe?
    Yes.

  7. #67
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Heeey Beefeater... thanks for the thoughts! It seems like a little bit of a self-referential loop here, though:



    Your faith community helps to provide you with answers and truth outside of yourself, but one of the reasons you chose it was that it affirmed the same view of God as your own? I promise I'm not trying to criticize you, just understand the process. There must be a part of it that I am missing...
    I figured this was what you were getting at with your question.

    I have a very complex view of God. I developed that view not from searching myself, but from listening and reading about God from others. As I have grown up I have come to accept some of the ideas I have heard and read as true and rejected other ideas. Obviously this did include some internal analysis, but the substance of the analyses never came from within myself. Through this analysis I accepted certain foundational ideas about God.

    In order to learn more about God and the truth it only makes sense that I would surround myself with those that have more knowledge than I have and accept the same foundational ideas as I do.

    If my foundational beliefs are correct than I can learn the most from those that have built upon that foundation.


    What do you mean by "people of God"? Do you think holiness can exist outside of followers of the Bible?
    No. It is impossible. To belong to God is to be known by God, and to be known by God is to know God. The Bible is God's unique revelation of himself and it is impossible to know God without affirming what is within the Bible.

  8. #68
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Yes, I can see that. Do you think the gathering together in common purpose itself is a holy act?
    No. I'm not sure what holiness is exactly, but I'm fairly sure that evil ends preclude any act meant to advance those ends from being holy.

  9. #69
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    That's always going to backfire. While some people's beliefs encourage that type of outlook, a balanced person recognizes that people have a choice to make. Consider the source as well; If well meaning person who has demonstrated their interest in your well being says something along the lines to 'shame' you, it could be that they are trying to make you aware of a potentially dangerous situation you're attempting- to remind you of the negative consequences. It's a case-by-case situation.
    I know. I've been around it nearly forty years starting with my grandma.

    Honestly, it screwed with my head pretty badly and in order to overcome depression I pretty much just had to turn it off. I'm not going to subject myself to it week after week because I really can't.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #70
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I know. I've been around it nearly forty years starting with my grandma.

    Honestly, it screwed with my head pretty badly and in order to overcome depression I pretty much just had to turn it off. I'm not going to subject myself to it week after week because I really can't.
    This saddens me.

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