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  1. #11
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    This is interesting. Most of you seem to believe that it is unethical. The main reason I wanted to make this thread is because I agree with all of you and find that any ethical consideration depends upon whether or not people follow the system and don't abuse its structure. If the system is corrupt then counterfeiting becomes a way to fight the system, but only if the person doesn't become corrupted by the power they obtain.

    I guess it would be nice to hear what you think is corrupt about the system and what isn't. YourLocalJesus got the idea

    I would share ideas, but I'm not sure where to start so I'm hoping someone will start this for me.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Chunes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sky is BLUE! View Post
    No, it's not ethical. You think you get it for free? Wrong. One way or another, you will still "pay" for it like the people who work for their money (time, effort, health, etc. things you sacrifice to get money).
    I think you have the right idea.

    I'm going to go ahead and say that counterfeiting is at least justified, if not ethical. The risk matches the reward. (Most people trade their time for money; counterfeiters risk their freedom for it. Sounds fair to me. Especially considering the unjust nature of our monetary system.)
    "If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. But do not care to convince him. Men will believe what they see. Let them see."
    Thoreau

  3. #13
    Senior Member Feops's Avatar
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    What? No. Never.

    Currency only has value because the populance has confidence in its scarcity. It's used to represent a relative proportion of wealth. If you can just make an infinite amount then it doesn't represent that any more.

    Yes the powers that be can "print money", but this doesn't actually generate more wealth so it's a balance. To an extent it's required to keep pace with inflation and population growth but runs risks when applied overmuch.

    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    I'm actually all for counterfeiting money. If someone does it on a large enough scale, it will probably fuck everything up.
    Hopefully, some day, stuff will be less insane. To you, i'm probably the one that sounds insane
    Give it some thought.
    "fucking everything up" to itself doesn't sound terribly sane unless you replace it with something better and the transition itself isn't overly crippling.

  4. #14
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Not unless the Secret Service reimburses recipients of counterfeit money with real money.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #15
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    If the system is corrupt, wouldn't it be better off to forego the fiat money and just trade things of value directly?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  6. #16
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    If the system is corrupt, wouldn't it be better off to forego the fiat money and just trade things of value directly?
    Exactly what I was wondering.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    This is interesting. Most of you seem to believe that it is unethical. The main reason I wanted to make this thread is because I agree with all of you and find that any ethical consideration depends upon whether or not people follow the system and don't abuse its structure. If the system is corrupt then counterfeiting becomes a way to fight the system, but only if the person doesn't become corrupted by the power they obtain.

    I guess it would be nice to hear what you think is corrupt about the system and what isn't. YourLocalJesus got the idea

    I would share ideas, but I'm not sure where to start so I'm hoping someone will start this for me.
    First of all, the question of whether the system is "corrupt" is not really able to be answered in an objective manner. What if it's partially corrupt, but for the most part runs relatively free of corruption and to the benefit of those willing to work hard under the system? Is that still "corrupt"? At what point does the degree of corruption in an economic system cause the system as a whole to be accurately deemed "corrupt"?

    And at what degree of corruption does it become ethical to illegally debase the currency? And who determines that point?

    And, even further, regardless of the amount of corruption, when one counterfeits, isn't one invariably taking advantage of and hurting those who legitimately labor under the system and depend on the integrity of the value of the currency for which they toil to purchase goods and services? How do you ever justify that transgression?

    And even in some backhanded karmic, Socratic kinda way, don't you in some way hurt yourself by taking material gains from the system without actually putting in the hard work to earn those gains? I highly doubt such actions have ever or ever will end very well...

    In no way is counterfeiting ever ethical (except possibly in the extreme circumstance in which the system is so fucking rife with corruption [like Zimbabwe or something], and such counterfeiting will somehow "break the system", which, in all reality, is extremely unlikely anyway, and has probably never been the true intention of any counterfeiter anywhere, anytime).

    Simply said, counterfeiting is always wrong.

  8. #18
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    I'm not a huge fan of money in any form but precious metals with a very stable value...
    I see the problem with minting false coins with lead etc, but printing that paper money...
    The banks just make up capital that isn't there, and that's what lets this parasitic abomination of a society survive.
    With parasitic abominations, I mean the service economies that aren't producing anything much.

    I'm actually all for counterfeiting money. If someone does it on a large enough scale, it will probably fuck everything up.
    Hopefully, some day, stuff will be less insane. To you, i'm probably the one that sounds insane
    Give it some thought.
    I've had thoughts that aren't entirely disimilar to what you are saying. In my case, I was more thinking of the way in which people confuse money and wealth. Money is the cash and little numbers in the banl balance. I use the term wealth to express material riches - food, buildings, oil, a nuclear power plant. Things that exist in a very real sense.

    Money is supposed to be a representation of wealth, something that can be passed from person to person without having put up with the inconvieniance of swopping a million pigs for a submarine.

    The trouble arrises when people start to think of money as being something in and of itself. By fiddling with exchange rates, interest and the like people create money out of nothing - but the amount of wealth in existance stays the same. It simply creates an illusion that with have more resources then we truely do. People than start to consume those resources faster then they can be replaced. Counterfeiting certainly helps that process along. Eventually, the truth pushes it ugly head through our comfy dream and the system collapses while it realigns itself with reality.

  9. #19
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    The trouble arrises when people start to think of money as being something in and of itself. By fiddling with exchange rates, interest and the like people create money out of nothing - but the amount of wealth in existance stays the same. It simply creates an illusion that with have more resources then we truely do. People than start to consume those resources faster then they can be replaced. Counterfeiting certainly helps that process along. Eventually, the truth pushes it ugly head through our comfy dream and the system collapses while it realigns itself with reality.
    I don't think it would be accurate to say that they create money out of nothing. There is no static point to compare value to when it comes to exchanging anything. When one thing gains more value, something else is devalued in relation to it.

    What makes money not something in and of itself?
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  10. #20
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Counterfeiting is a thriving private enterprise. Free-market baby. Can't have big government telling us what we can and can't do with paper....
    A hit-man business can probably be a pretty thriving enterprise too. Gooooooo capitalism!

    (I suppose we should be decriminalizing littering as well.)

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