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  1. #61
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    The trick is determining where you see allegory.
    I don't see him in the Oval Office.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #62
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I don't see him in the Oval Office.
    He's been in there before, but only for staff meetings.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post

    The trick is determining where you see allegory.
    And where you see propaganda, or that is, "yes, we committed mass genocide and wiped out entire peoples and their cultures so we could take over their land, but it was okay because God told us to do it and they were evil and nasty anyway"...

    Books like Nehemiah send shudders through me...
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  4. #64
    Oberon
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    Jericho.

    What do you make of Jericho?

  5. #65
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    The archeology isn't even clear on Jericho. (At the moment, it still seems to stand that the city walls/gates did not exist at the time the Bible suggests the conquest occurred.)

    The conquest story itself has two flaws. One is the historicity of it (no proof found yet that it happened in the timeframe the Bible suggests). The other is that the strategies used either don't make sense, or they seem like human strategies, not God strategies.

    (Well, perhaps that is not the conquest I'm thinking of. But all of Gideon's schemes are attributed to God, whereas they just seem like human cunning at work. And which battle was the one where the men smashed their jars and let all their torches flare at once, suggesting there were a lot more men there than than Israel had? That is a human strategy and says nothing about God whatsoever. This is why the Biblical account seems like a jumble of geographical fact, some healthy folklore, and human wisdom all rolled together.)

    Then again, I still have not even figured out how millions of Israelites wandered around a rather small (geographically) desert wilderness for 40 years without leaving a trace of themselves, and had enough resources to survive as a people. (Aside from the obvious, "Oh, it was a miracle!" scenario.)

    The field of archeology has been changing its approach for the last 50 years, looking at evidence and then comparing to the Biblical narrative, rather than using the Biblical narrative to interpret the evidence. Much of that information is still trickling its way down to public knowledge, which seems to think that archeology offers resounding proof that the Bible is completely true; in reality, it's much more gray.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #66
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The archeology isn't even clear on Jericho. (At the moment, it still seems to stand that the city walls/gates did not exist at the time the Bible suggests the conquest occurred.)
    Eh. I don't care about the archaeology of Jericho (or, rather I am, but that's not what I was getting at in my post). What I was asking sub about was the record in Joshua of a divine mandate to put every living thing in the city to death.

    I presume sub would see this as one of those cases where the history was invented as an apology for genocide.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I presume sub would see this as one of those cases where the history was invented as an apology for genocide.
    It could be.

    Then again, it's like trying to say that George W. Bush has fabricated his beliefs in God in order to invade Iraq for purely pragmatic reasons. (I believe he sincerely believes the spiritual narrative he has created.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    It could be.

    Then again, it's like trying to say that George W. Bush has fabricated his beliefs in God in order to invade Iraq for purely pragmatic reasons. (I believe he sincerely believes the spiritual narrative he has created.)
    Oddly, I don't.

    I think the US invaded Iraq for purely pragmatic reasons.

    I also think George Bush has a sincere faith in God, but I don't think that faith is what drove the move to invade. I think Bush may have found himself personally forced to reconcile his faith with the invasion, and that's the answer he came up with.

    But this post threatens to move the discussion off-topic, so I'll desist.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Oddly, I don't.
    I think the US invaded Iraq for purely pragmatic reasons.
    I also think George Bush has a sincere faith in God, but I don't think that faith is what drove the move to invade. I think Bush may have found himself personally forced to reconcile his faith with the invasion, and that's the answer he came up with.
    But this post threatens to move the discussion off-topic, so I'll desist.
    Fine then, go ahead -- go to your petty threads elsewhere and talk about big butts, see if I care!

    How on earth did we end up on each other's side of this discussion?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #70
    Oberon
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    If you'd like, move posts 67 through 70 to a new thread in the Politics forum, and we can take it up there.

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