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  1. #11
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Oh. I thought you were asking an honest question. My mistake. Carry on.
    Please explain. I know you are a very religious person and I would love to understand why a Christian would take the Bible so literally. If the Bible is proof of God's infallibility, then wouldn't it prove that God is fallible?

  2. #12
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
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  3. #13
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    being a horrible, horrible person, I just look at the Bible the same way that I'd look at the Epic of Gilgamesh or the Popul Vuh or any other old religious or cultural text that we view as literature today! For goodness sake- even if there was some truth in it origionally, it's been translated and retranslated so many times that there's 2 different creation stories in Genesis!
    the 2 creation stories have something to do with jewish tradition. i can't remember what it was, but it is actually a positive when viewed metaphorically (IMO, how it should be read).
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
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  4. #14
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sassafrassquatch View Post
    Literalists believe the bible is the inerrant divinely inspired word of god preserved through copy and translation by him. In their minds to say by putting their faith in the bible they are not putting their faith in god is absurd as the bible is the literal word of god, says so right in the bible.
    That is the thing. They decide that, if God is God, then he has the divine power to ensure that the meaning is conveyed correctly through every translation.

    (Of course, that's a priori reasoning -- "The Bible conveys God's will because the God we know from the Bible makes sure that it conveys His will.")
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #15
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That is the thing. They decide that, if God is God, then he has the divine power to ensure that the meaning is conveyed correctly through every translation.

    (Of course, that's a priori reasoning -- "The Bible conveys God's will because the God we know from the Bible makes sure that it conveys His will.")
    Well since there are many different versions of the Bible and many different sects of Christianity, sometimes with contradictory interpretations of the Bible, it would seem clear to me that either the Bible is fallible or God is.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Well since there are many different versions of the Bible and many different sects of Christianity, sometimes with contradictory interpretations of the Bible, it would seem clear to me that either the Bible is fallible or God is.
    Before we even get to that point we have to figure out a) is/are there (a) god(s)(ess)(es)? b) if so has/have he/she/it/they revealed his/her/its/their existence and/or will to humans? This whole topic is sitting atop a stack of assumptions.

  7. #17
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Well since there are many different versions of the Bible and many different sects of Christianity, sometimes with contradictory interpretations of the Bible, it would seem clear to me that either the Bible is fallible or God is.
    me too.

    but there's the loophole of a purpose behind the bible being not a straightforward read. you can always go deeper, like when studying shakespeare. you may get it, but that doesn't mean you'll catch everything that's in there, or interpret it correctly. it's unarguably rich text; it's no light reading.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  8. #18
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sassafrassquatch View Post
    Before we even get to that point we have to figure out a) is/are there (a) god(s)(ess)(es)? b) if so has/have he/she/it/they revealed his/her/its/their existence and/or will to humans? This whole topic is sitting atop a stack of assumptions.
    I don't even know of a way to intellectually figure that out. It seems that the easiest way to explore it actually IS to examine each faith's claims, to see if they are even palatable.

    (Otherwise, it's like a few college kids sitting in a room with windows saying, "Hey do you think there is a god?" and someone says, "yeah, man," and another says, "No way," and then they all nod and laugh. The abstract question has no teeth unless it is connected to a tangible proposition that can be explored.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    but there's the loophole of a purpose behind the bible being not a straightforward read. you can always go deeper, like when studying shakespeare. you may get it, but that doesn't mean you'll catch everything that's in there, or interpret it correctly. it's unarguably rich text; it's no light reading.
    I agree with that. Regardless of any apparent flaws that people might perceive, it is definitely one of those things you can read at different stages of life and be catalyzed to see something new. That actually is why I think the Bible is so popular and why Christians believe the faith is "real" -- because of the depth of the wisdom inherent in the book. If it was based on "Harold and the Purple Crayon" or "Harry the Dirty Dog," well, it would have died out quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Well since there are many different versions of the Bible and many different sects of Christianity, sometimes with contradictory interpretations of the Bible, it would seem clear to me that either the Bible is fallible or God is.
    *gasp*

    Well, that's because all of them but [my denomination here] is wrong.

    Honestly, though, the actual translators have a much realistic sense of things. Even the general texts describe all the typical problems in translation.

    I really get this idea that the average layperson is extremely ignorant of the origins of the Bible and the transmission process, in general, because their expectations/interpretations seem unrealistic/naive, if they'd know anything about document transmission and language translation at all. Just very amazing...
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    *gasp*

    Well, that's because all of them but [my denomination here] is wrong.

    Honestly, though, the actual translators have a much realistic sense of things. Even the general texts describe all the typical problems in translation.

    I really get this idea that the average layperson is extremely ignorant of the origins of the Bible and the transmission process, in general, because their expectations/interpretations seem unrealistic/naive, if they'd know anything about document transmission and language translation at all. Just very amazing...
    [RANT]

    That is it! I give up! I'm a moral relativist from this day on! "There are only subjective absolutes and objectivity is an illusion stemming from pride." "Man is the measure of all things." That is my new creed.

    I was raised to believe in the infallibility of the word of God, and it has brought me nothing but pain and disappointment. I will not worship a freakin book! God will forever be a part of me, as much as he should, but the Bible clearly holds seeds of prejudice and hate and I will have none of that corrupting me.

    [/RANT]

    On another note, I think translators of Aramaic are homophobes, sexists, and bigots.

  10. #20
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    None of the oldest (and most reputable) manuscripts agree in every detail.
    Very true. But at the same time when compared it's amazing how much agreement there really is. The inconsistencies are actually much smaller than what skeptics would have a person believe. Additionally it's very easy to find a bible that documents the various inconsistancies in the texts. Once you see what they are, you can tell that there are a few passages worth noting and the rest are nit picking differences which usually alter the meaning of the text little or not at all.

    I wouldn't say the Bible is infallible, but I will say that it's pretty close. To me it's amazing how little the text has changed.
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