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  1. #41
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
    There's a huge difference between the greatness of a person - and God (Himself).
    I'm curious what point you're trying to make with this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    God was a concept created with the conscious, that swept into our subconscious, and that we can't validate until we're unconscious.
    I could see this, but it seems to me that it was created in the subconscious and the conscious rationalized it (or was unable to, so turned to anthropomorphism instead). Seems like a survival mechanism, just like everything else.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

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  2. #42
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Sublimation is not for everyone.

    For ice sublimates into water and water sublimates into steam, but some of us are destined to remain frozen forever.

    And the lowest level of hell is not fire but ice.
    I don't know what you mean by sublimation exactly, but if you're saying ascetism isn't for everyone, then I definitely agree. I think even Jesus of Nazareth said that.. Somehow it's becoming mandatory in some circles though. And that's damaging.

  3. #43
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    God was a concept created with the conscious, that swept into our subconscious, and that we can't validate until we're unconscious.
    I partly agree with this.

    Except I think God is still a valid concept whether we created the idea or not. Experiencing God otoh is something I'll take with a grain of salt... scratch that, a lot of grains of salt. I call shenanigans on anything that can only be validated when I'm unconscious or altered in some way (like with psychedelics). It's a "false god", so to speak.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Loxias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Sublimation is not for everyone.

    For ice sublimates into water and water sublimates into steam, but some of us are destined to remain frozen forever.

    And the lowest level of hell is not fire but ice.
    Sublimation is the transition of a substance from the solid phase directly to the vapor state such that it does not pass through the intermediate liquid phase.

    Not everyone can sublimate, only the solid can.

    Interesting metaphor when used right. I'll think about it more after I sleep.
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  5. #45
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    i don't think ascetism is the answer to anything, for me, anyway. i think life is to be experienced. that's why i don't like religions and their rules, because they rule out stuff that could actually be good for your individual soul. also, i am always suspicious of people trying to affect my emotions, or people trying to push me into something. i think that's a healthy attitude. i only explore what feels right to me.

  6. #46
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yvonne View Post
    i only explore what feels right to me.
    "If it feels good, do it", is the anthem of the narcissist.

  7. #47
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    and judging them is even more narcissistic.

    edit: something i'm guilty of, i might add

    otoh, it all depends. if they're harmless, i don't mind.

  8. #48
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    i think it's healthy, and i've learned it the hard way. i am very careful about what i feel though... and what i do with what i feel/ think.

  9. #49
    Senior Member durentu's Avatar
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    OP:

    Jung believed that you can bring the unconscious thoughts into consciousness through dreams. And when he analyzed the dreams, the god image came up frequently. You must also understand that the god image he speaks of is very broad Including the numen and other secular gods.

    This isn't to say that the christian god is found in the depth of our minds and possible pin pointed in the brain via neurotheology (pseudoscience btw). It just means that within dreams, it tends to manifest images centered around some figure.

    We also know that the subconscious is the repository of all sensory information. Only the ones with an emotive response really get elevated into short term and then long term memory. If you live in a christian town, this religion will be in your subconscious then it's very likely that you'll have a dream about god and the like. If you are in an atheist town, and devoid of the concept, you may not have this god image. This hasn't been shown yet.

    In my view, the brain is a pattern recognition machine and tends to reduce things into some smaller manageable forms. This is what the god concept is. To contrast this, look up J Campbell's 'hero with a thousand faces'. His monomyth or hero's journey is the similarity between 4000+ years of myth.

    In the anthropological sense, the god concept is an evolved concept through ancestry. Starting with parents, then grand parents, then great grandparents, then previous generations, then ancestors, then family traditions, then culture, then god.

    Context is important.

  10. #50
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think he's referring to the "directive" God part. In my experience within Christian faith, it will often seem like something is speaking to you or giving you nudges or inclinations -- it's a vague and rather inexplicable feeling, but it involves a sense of "rightness" and "peace" or "inner alignment." Basically, instead of being dominated and terrified of external supernatural forces, the divine has been relocated inside in a sense.
    I think this is the core of how God speaks to you, if what I understand is correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Usually people who believe in a God of some sort DO believe they understand it and have connected with it. They personalize the experience internally rather than possibly recognizing it as a part of themselves as per Jung above, because to them it feels like separate = living entity and then give flesh to the idea as per their particular religious doctrines.

    I think you are literalizing Jung's use of "God" here. remember, he's creating a bridge from a religious mindset to his ideas, so he's using God as a connective point -- what the religious people identify as God, Jung is now equating to some sort of inner facet. He is not really commenting on a tangible independent God, he's speaking metaphorically. When you use symbols, you do not have to understand all the details of them; they exist as complete images in their own right and you can't reduce them to further granularity.

    And he's saying people mistake their internal unconscious libido or driving/life force as the active God component.
    I didn't catch the "mistake" implication.

    Quote Originally Posted by durentu View Post
    OP:

    Jung believed that you can bring the unconscious thoughts into consciousness through dreams. And when he analyzed the dreams, the god image came up frequently. You must also understand that the god image he speaks of is very broad Including the numen and other secular gods.

    This isn't to say that the christian god is found in the depth of our minds and possible pin pointed in the brain via neurotheology (pseudoscience btw). It just means that within dreams, it tends to manifest images centered around some figure.

    We also know that the subconscious is the repository of all sensory information. Only the ones with an emotive response really get elevated into short term and then long term memory. If you live in a christian town, this religion will be in your subconscious then it's very likely that you'll have a dream about god and the like. If you are in an atheist town, and devoid of the concept, you may not have this god image. This hasn't been shown yet.

    In my view, the brain is a pattern recognition machine and tends to reduce things into some smaller manageable forms. This is what the god concept is. To contrast this, look up J Campbell's 'hero with a thousand faces'. His monomyth or hero's journey is the similarity between 4000+ years of myth.

    In the anthropological sense, the god concept is an evolved concept through ancestry. Starting with parents, then grand parents, then great grandparents, then previous generations, then ancestors, then family traditions, then culture, then god.

    Context is important.
    Well, this is quite enlightening. However isn't he really saying more per the bolded items below? I don't know how much dreams influence our actual everyday behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander29 View Post
    I was reading in "Psychological Types,", Jung's analysis of "The Relativity of the God-concept in Meister Eckhart", and thought some of the following was interesting. What do you think about some of this?

    "the God-image is the symbolic expression of a particular psychic state, or function, which is characterized by its absolute ascendency over the will of the subject and can therefore bring about or enforce actions and achievements that could never be done by conscious effort. This overpowering impetus to action or this inspiration that transcends conscious understanding, has its source in an accumulation of energy in the unconscious"

    "God is not even relative, but a function of the unconscious - the manifestation of a dissociated quantum of libido that has activated the God-image"

    "The aim of the great religions is expressed in the injunction "not of this world," and this implies the inward movement of libido into the unconsciousness"

    "the soul is a personification of the unconsciousness, where lies the treasure, the libido which is immersed in introversion and is allegorized as God's kingdom. This amounts to a permanent union with God, a living in his kingdom, in that the state where a preponderance of libido lies in the unconscious and determines conscious life. The libido concentrated in the conscious was formerly invested in objects, and this made the world seem all-powerful. God was then "outside," but now he works from within, as the hidden treasure conceived as God's kingdom."

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