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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbah View Post
    Why would I want to relate to something I don't want to understand though?
    If it doesn't make sense to you personally, then maybe you can try to imagine why other people MIGHT want to? It sounds like from your POV it makes no sense, but that's not the case for some other types of people.

    If I want to relate to something, it is desirable to me. If something is desirable to me, I want to relate to it, unite with it, know it, so understand it. Even if I don't understand it 100%, I've got some sort of idea as to what it is I am desiring.
    Usually people who believe in a God of some sort DO believe they understand it and have connected with it. They personalize the experience internally rather than possibly recognizing it as a part of themselves as per Jung above, because to them it feels like separate = living entity and then give flesh to the idea as per their particular religious doctrines.

    So if I want to relate to myself, I don't see how in all of that I end up allegorising my inner world as God's kingdom, when I am not supposed to even believe there is an objective God. That all that really matters is me. Just sounds sort of grandiose and delusional to me. Like, the only way you can really come to self-acceptance is if you blow up your self-image and self-importance into the image of "God". Then you're really "it", you're really "you". Though there is no God you believe in. Yet you are manifesting a desire to worship something. So you worship yourself. Just sounds kind of confused and messed up to me.
    I think you are literalizing Jung's use of "God" here. remember, he's creating a bridge from a religious mindset to his ideas, so he's using God as a connective point -- what the religious people identify as God, Jung is now equating to some sort of inner facet. He is not really commenting on a tangible independent God, he's speaking metaphorically. When you use symbols, you do not have to understand all the details of them; they exist as complete images in their own right and you can't reduce them to further granularity.

    And he's saying people mistake their internal unconscious libido or driving/life force as the active God component.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
    Senior Member Gerbah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    He is not really commenting on a tangible independent God, he's speaking metaphorically. When you use symbols, you do not have to understand all the details of them; they exist as complete images in their own right and you can't reduce them to further granularity.

    And he's saying people mistake their internal unconscious libido or driving/life force as the active God component.
    Oh ok, so "God" is seen as a symbol of a certain psychic drive. I didn't get that. I think see the structure of the POV better now.

    Maybe this is a bit off topic, but are symbols generally used by Jung as indicators of psychic activity? I always did find Jung difficult to understand when I tried to read his own words and not commentaries by others. The symbols seemed somehow powerful and independent as I understood them, which wasn't very well.
    the shoheen ho of the wind of the west and the lulla lo of the soft sea billow - Alfred Graves

  3. #13
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbah View Post
    Oh ok, so "God" is seen as a symbol of a certain psychic drive. I didn't get that. I think see the structure of the POV better now.

    Maybe this is a bit off topic, but are symbols generally used by Jung as indicators of psychic activity? I always did find Jung difficult to understand when I tried to read his own words and not commentaries by others.
    Jung is an extremely symbolic writer. It's one reason people sometimes argue over what he's trying to say (the symbols that were obvious to him are less clear to others) and why people often debate his type between INTP and INFJ... the latter has an Ni primary cog function, which thinks symbolically, even though Jung also seems to think systematically as an INTP does.

    He tended to perceive everything in symbols and archetypal structures.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #14
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    Magic and the Suspension of Disbelief

    To believe in a book, to believe in a movie, and to believe in God, all we need to do is suspend our disbelief.

    And we suspend our disbelief for a while by allowing our cognitive faculties to go to sleep. And so we allow ourselves to believe what is in the book or the movie or our religion.

    And we allow our cognitive faculties such as judgement and analysis to go to sleep for a while to refresh ourselves. So that when we awake from our suspension of disbelief, we can see the world freshly, anew and more accurately.

    The caveat is though that when we are in a state of suspended disbelief, we don't sign a contract or make a marriage proposal or make an important decision. No, we wait until we are fully awake before we sign a contract, propose marriage, or make an important decision.

    But having said all that, all that remains is aesthetics.

    Is it a beautiful book? Or is it a lovely movie? Or do I worship a beautiful God?

    For just as what we eat today walks and talks tomorrow, we become what we read or watch or worship. It's like magic.

  5. #15
    Oberon
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    I think Victor is a function of our collective subconscious.

    What the he!! are we thinking?!?

  6. #16
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I think Victor is a function of our collective subconscious. What the he!! are we thinking?!?
    You mean each of us has a piece of Victor deep inside?
    Even Jung?
    So that means... the ideas of Jung... that Victor is criticizing... actually came from Victor = ouroboros swallowing its own tail in the everlasting chase?

    @Victor: Thank you for your post. I enjoyed it on its own merits, although I'm still trying to formulate the connection between it and this particular thread.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #17
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    You mean each of us has a piece of Victor deep inside?
    Even Jung?
    So that means... the ideas of Jung... that Victor is criticizing... actually came from Victor = ouroboros swallowing its own tail in the everlasting chase?

    @Victor: Thank you for your post. I enjoyed it on its own merits, although I'm still trying to formulate the connection between it and this particular thread.
    Yes, this is the everlasting conversation - ouroboros manifest.

  8. #18
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    i really can't grasp this. so if we had these "god parts" inside us, could "they" communicate? like a god part to a god part? lol... would they be connected somehow and would they be similar in each person?

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by yvonne View Post
    i really can't grasp this. so if we had these "god parts" inside us, could "they" communicate? like a god part to a god part? lol... would they be connected somehow and would they be similar in each person?
    Julian Jaynes deals with just this question in, "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind".

    It is a great book and an interesting hypothesis.

  10. #20
    Senior Member milkyway2's Avatar
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    Yes. People say when they are on psychedelics that they feel like "another presence" is with them. Psychologists have found it to be this unconscious part of our brain. Also located on the right side. Really interesting..

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