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Thread: STOP ARGUING!!

  1. #11
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    An argument is held for the benefit of the ones arguing alone. A debate is held for the sake of the people observing.
    Not if it's college policy debate. I have no idea how it benefits any observers.

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  2. #12
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Arguing is fun.
    Some of us do it as a break from intellectual life. Considered that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #13
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    Victor

    I am shackled hand and foot spread eagle on the floor of my cell. I ask my jailer everyday to set me free. Finally he compassionately sets me free.

    For days I am exhilarated with the ability to freely pace about my cell. After a few weeks I begin to beg my jailer to set me free. After weeks he, being a compassionate man, sets me free from my cell.

    For days I am exhilarated at the freedom to wonder about and speak with other inmates. After several weeks I begin to beg my jailer to free me and finally he relents and releases me from jail. I am overwhelmed with the sense of freedom until I, overcome with hunger and basic needs, seek some work so as to feed myself.

    I find a job working on an assembly line and am exhilarated at the new found freedom. After a year I begin to seek other less strenuous and repetitive assembly line work. I wish to free myself from this robotic work I do everyday.

    What is the telos (ultimate end) of this series of ever persistent desire for freedom? Is hunger for freedom similar to hunger for food, never satiated? I dont think so. I think the search for freedom can culminate in an ultimate and satisfying end.

    Freedom, I suspect, is a search for self-determination. When we feel that we are master of our domain, when we are free to determine who we are and what we need to be our self we will have reached that telos of freedom. I suspect this end is as unique as a finger print, it is an act of creation and can be made conscious to me only by me.

    I think each of us must learn for our self what we need to secure freedoms telos. Probably most of us find only a degree of freedom, but if we never stop looking we may continue finding more of it.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Arguing is fun.
    Some of us do it as a break from intellectual life. Considered that?
    Yes I think that argument is often fun. I suspect that many forum members post on forums because it is what I would call a "verbal video game".

  5. #15
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    People by their nature have much more in common with apes than the epitome of a rational human being. Our intellect is still a rather new cognitive feature and for this reason history generally depicts people as more vulgar, thoughtless and impulsive rather than reflective. Similarly to animals, when people have their territory invaded, they feel uncomfortable. As you mentioned, the metaphors of argument are literal rather than figurative. So, when people have their wisdom questioned, they display the same visceral, impetuous reaction that a monkey displays when a beast enters its territory.

    In order to appreciate argument in an edifying sense, or a collection of thought experiments that are meant to educate, people need to have cognitive faculties that are much further developed than they are today. Most people would not even dream of spending their leisure time reading a challening book or solving puzzles. In fact, they have no concept of what it means to have an intellectual challenge or even less to appreciate it.

    In short, they aren't interested in learning, only in affirming their prejudices. You mentioned that on this forum people tend to see arguments as verbal altercations. The explanation for this is that people of our community do so for the same reason the common-place, vulgar folk do. However, typologycentral members have a special incentive to see arguments as combative. Most of them have 'N' in their MBTI code which they equate with intelligence, so their animalistic instincts of self-preservation tell them that not only is their territory invaded, but that one of their most prized virtues also is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Arguing is fun.
    Some of us do it as a break from intellectual life. Considered that?
    Most of you have no intellectual life and the quality of your 'arguments' rarely exceeds those commonly seen on Jerry Springer. Out of mere confusion and self-pity you presume yourselves to have some kind of intellectual abilities which are attested to by your 'arguments' or posts of low-brow invectives against one another that consist mostly of one-liners and chat-speak codes. (Tl'dr, LOL, ESTJ! INFJ! INTJ! ISTJ! SJ! Sensor! Insert emoticon here)
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

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  6. #16
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Freedom and Ecstasy

    Quote Originally Posted by coberst View Post
    Victor

    I think each of us must learn for our self what we need to secure freedoms telos. Probably most of us find only a degree of freedom, but if we never stop looking we may continue finding more of it.
    Quite so.

    Freedom is transcendence. For as you show, we transcend any condition we find ourselves in.

    We know, of course, where we are but we don't know where we are going.

    So the impulse to transcend the taken-for-granted is somewhat mysterious until we find that stepping outside the taken-for-granted is ecstatic.

    And just as the Ancient Greeks discovered, it is ecstasy that entices us to freedom. But once tasted, we want more and more.

    Like the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden, once tasted, we develop a taste.

    So we develop a taste for ecstasy that can only be satisfied by eating again and again as we break out of the prison of the taken-for-granted into ecstasy.

    Ah, sweet ecstasy!

  7. #17
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Argument:

    noun
    1.
    an oral disagreement; verbal opposition; contention; altercation: a violent argument.

    2.
    a discussion involving differing points of view; debate: They were deeply involved in an argument about inflation.

    3.
    a process of reasoning; series of reasons: I couldn't follow his argument.

    4.
    a statement, reason, or fact for or against a point: This is a strong argument in favor of her theory.

    5.
    an address or composition intended to convince or persuade; persuasive discourse.

    6.
    subject matter; theme: The central argument of his paper was presented clearly.

    7.
    an abstract or summary of the major points in a work of prose or poetry, or of sections of such a work.

    Debate:

    noun
    1.
    a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints: a debate in the Senate on farm price supports.

    2.
    a formal contest in which the affirmative and negative sides of a proposition are advocated by opposing speakers.

    3.
    deliberation; consideration.
    So it looks to me like a debate is essentially an argument. An argument does not have to be a debate, though. Argument is actually a very broad word.

    There's also this.

    Discussion:

    noun
    an act or instance of discussing; consideration or examination by argument, comment, etc., esp. to explore solutions; informal debate.
    Oh, and how about this?

    Dispute:

    noun

    7.
    a debate, controversy, or difference of opinion.

    8.
    a wrangling argument; quarrel.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #18
    Senior Member LeafAndSky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coberst View Post
    LeafandSky

    One very serious problem is that our educational system has taught us something about debate but has left us totally ignorant of dialogic.

    I think that our first step is for a significant percentage of our population to become sufficiently intellectually sophisticated as to make many citizens capable of engaging in dialogical reasoning. To do this I think that many citizens must become self-actualizing self-learners when their school daze are over.
    What you describe isn't for everyone, but more of it often would be of benefit to quality of life, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by coberst View Post
    Under our normal cultural situation communication means to discourse, to exchange opinions with one another. It seems to me that there are opinions, considered opinions, and judgments. Opinions are a dime-a-dozen. Considered opinions, however, are opinions that have received a considerable degree of thought but have not received special study. A considered opinion starts out perhaps as tacit knowledge but receives sufficient intellectual attention to have become consciously organized in some fashion. Judgments are made within a process of study.
    Some people, for whatever reason, get as far as opinion and then stop.

    I like to go further than opinion, but not always. Sometimes developing considered opinions and judgments is work or is too time-consuming. Topics and issues are many and complex these days; it's not possible to develop a considered opinion or judgment on everything.

    There's also the possibility that taking a closer look at some subject is threatening to a person in some way.

    Quote Originally Posted by coberst View Post
    Dialogic can happen only if both individuals wish to reason together in truth, in coherence, without prejudice, and without trying to influence each other.[/b] Each must be prepared to drop his old ideas and intentions. And be ready to go on to something different, when this is called forThus, if people are to cooperate (i.e., literally to work together) they have to be able to create something in common, something that takes shape in their mutual discussions and actions, rather than something that is conveyed from one person who acts as an authority to the others, who act as passive instruments of this authority.
    I seldom think in term of exploring something together in order to create and learn together. Thank you for reminding me of that. I do at least think in terms of mutual sharing of experiences or insights and learning from one another.

    Quote Originally Posted by coberst View Post
    On Dialogue written by The late David Bohm, one of the greatest physicists and foremost thinkers this century, was Fellow of the Royal Society and Emeritus Professor of Physics at Birkbeck College, University of London.

    Bohm is convinced that communication is breaking down as a result of the crude and insensitive manner in which it is transpiring. Communication is a concept with a common meaning that does not fit well with the concepts of dialogue, dialectic, and dialogic.
    You say that Bohm saw communication breakdown as caused by "the crude and insensitive manner in which it is transpiring." Do you know what he saw as a cause of the "crude and insensitive manner"? Does he have a fix?

    Quote Originally Posted by coberst View Post
    I claim that if we citizens do not learn to dialogue we cannot learn to live together in harmony sufficient to save the species.
    I don't know. There are a host of variables affecting "save the species."
    Last edited by LeafAndSky; 03-23-2010 at 08:55 PM. Reason: to remove irrelevant material

  9. #19
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    SolitaryWalker

    Our education system is designed to produce graduates who can help maximize production and consumption. There is little interest in graduating Critical Thinking independent individuals. The only way that we can get around this problem is for adults to become self-actualizing self-learners so that they can comprehend the situation that we are in and thus change it.

    My goal in posting on these forums is to attempt to convince adults to get an intellectual life when their school daze are over.

  10. #20
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    LeafandSky

    The fix for our problem is for adults to become self-actualizing self-learners when their school daze are over. Oops I am repeating my self.

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