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Buddhism and Love

mr.awesome

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So.. ive been studying Buddhism for the past couple months or so. Nothing too intense but i know the basics about it.
Although my studies have obviously taught me that Buddhism is respect and love oriented,
I cannot help but feel discouraged towards having committed relationships?
Maybe im really out of it and have been reading some awful books... but i have just gotten the vibe that although buddha exhibited his loving kindness with no bias or judgement.. His teachings are extremely heavy on having no attachments or desires. [ie a girlfriend, wife, husband, whatever]

a few pieces of Buddhist teachings/writings

If one stays too long with friends
They will soon tire of him;
Living in such closeness leads to dislike and hate.
It is but human to expect and demand too much
When one dwells too long in companionship.

The flaws of cyclic existence: Relatives at home, enemies, friends and possessions in the world are the causes of worry for the body and mind. Only virtuous actions can benefit others. Therefore, I will not be attached to these ties and I will cast them away as I would a snake in my lap

Don't give way to heedlessness
or to intimacy
with sensual delight--
for a heedful person,
absorbed in jhana,
attains an abundance of ease

although i know Buddhism teaches we need to pry from our senses and worldly matters.. is such attraction between a man and a woman to be ignored and discouraged as evil hedonistic attachments?


[not to be rude either but id like your personal opinions moreso than links to websites :) ]
 

Venom

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Buddhism is nihilism, dressed up in optimistic clothing...
 

Mole

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The Monastery and the Noosphere

Buddhism is part of the monastic tradition where you forego your family and friends for the greater good.

It is plainly not for everyone as even Saint Paul says it is better to marry than to burn. But for those with the right disposition it frees them for the world.

And it was this monastic tradition that preserved Ancient Greek and Ancient Greek philosophy in their Scriptoriums.

And so it was the monastic tradition that gave birth to the Renaissance and the modern world while preserving the spoken traditions of the past - no mean achievement.

Not all religions have a monastic tradition, but most do. And certainly Buddhism has a long monastic tradition.

The monastery seems to spring naturally from religion, and is very attractive to those so disposed. However we live in the Attention Economy of Celebrities that worships youth and so today monastic life seems so unnatural. And so the monasteries remain empty.

But look around you here. On the internet we are disembodied spirits without family or friends who devote ourselves to discussing the greater good.

So the monastic impulse has left the monasteries and found its home in the noosphere.
 

ChildoftheProphets

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although i know Buddhism teaches we need to pry from our senses and worldly matters.. is such attraction between a man and a woman to be ignored and discouraged as evil hedonistic attachments?


[not to be rude either but id like your personal opinions moreso than links to websites :) ]

Lol, how about recommended books? (e.g. Buddhist Practice on Western Ground by Harvey Aronson, Ph.D.)

Anyway, I like to see nonattachment as going to a dance without a date. Once there, you may meet someone you really like and dance with them all night long. Or maybe, you'll meet several people and have a few dances with each. On the other hand, there may be no one there you share a connection with, so you just kick back and relax as a wallflower, drink in hand.

The important thing is not the number of partners you have, if any, but rather your contentment in the situation as it unfolds.

This interpretation is not only Buddhist in nature, but Taoist and Christian as well (two worldviews I'm also familiar with).

Taoists seek to do things spontaneously, as if giving in to the flow of a river that makes their journey as effortless as a smooth-sailing boat.

The apostle Paul, likewise, has similar advice on this very subject (in I Corinthians 7:8-9, 17, & 25-28):

Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. Are you married? Do not seek a divorce. Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife. But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.

Lol, so take your pick--Buddha, Lao Tzu, St. Paul--they can all be easily interepreted to have no problem with marriage in and of itself. Just ask yourself, though, do I have right mindfulness, right intention, and right action, or am I just doing this, consequences and other people be damned?

Am I living life according to its way, or am I trying to force something that is not natural?

Has God ordained this for me, or does he have another purpose which I am ignoring?

Anyway, hope this helps. Take care!

CotP

Edit: Just added verses 8-9 to that block of quote (the verses Victor was referring to earlier).
 

nanook

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you should probably try to find out something about the principles of descending (agape) and ascending (eros).
(i dont know the Buddhist terms)

because love is a perfect circle of both.

its related to what ChildOfTheProphets said, about being free first, and then going to dance. this is the order of the path. apparently it does not work in the opposite sequence, at least for most practitioners. the circle will not be big enough, if you don't learn to ascent to the top first. and so the descending will be an 'impure' version. meaning your interpretation of lovin would cause lots of pain. it's about how the spirit works, obviously

it is not an order of society. but naturally to some degree the order of monastic live. you have to separate the path of evolving consciousness from Buddhist philosophy. unfortunately some Buddhists don't get the separation right, themselves. and apparently most of the philosophy is that of someone who is already free, which sort of implies that they do not have a clear philosophy for people who are not free yet and who live an ordinary live. just instructions on how to practice. but i don't really have insight into what Buddhism does NOT have. it may be there, but its not so obvious.
 

Scott N Denver

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Buddhism is nihilism, dressed up in optimistic clothing...

Buddhism is a two and a half thousand year old major world religion, that has existed and continues to exist in a number of countries including the two most populous countries in the world, has "produced" countless enlightened individuals, trains people to sense into their soul, to send parts of their souls out of their body, teaches people how to "remember their past lives", produces saints, trains an "unfettered mind", shows the way to find one's "Original Face", produced zen/chan one of the most intense religious groups in existence, and Tibetan Buddhism the most occult religious group in the world [in my opinion], and Ken Wilber referred to Buddhism as "the most complete of all the wisdom traditions." I fail to see the analogy with some mere philosophical theory.
 

nanook

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a question that i can not answer my self, is whether the sequence of the ascending path might be biased towards the skills and requirements of the male gender. men tend to be identified with or conscious of the ascending force in their spirit, women tend to be identified with or conscious of the descending force. increasing the depth of the circle and ensuring that none of the forces are sabotaged may require different techniques.
 

Scott N Denver

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Buddhism is nihilism, dressed up in optimistic clothing...

I have read a number of times where high level Tibetan Buddhist lamas, and other advanced Buddhist teachers, point out very definitively that Buddhism is not nihilism. We all have our opinions, and you are entitled to yours, but unless you know as much about Buddhism as a high level lama who publicly teaches it, I'm personally gonna take their informed evaluation over your opinion, and I'd advise that others do the same as well.
 

Scott N Denver

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So.. ive been studying Buddhism for the past couple months or so. Nothing too intense but i know the basics about it.
Although my studies have obviously taught me that Buddhism is respect and love oriented,
I cannot help but feel discouraged towards having committed relationships?
Maybe im really out of it and have been reading some awful books... but i have just gotten the vibe that although buddha exhibited his loving kindness with no bias or judgement.. His teachings are extremely heavy on having no attachments or desires. [ie a girlfriend, wife, husband, whatever]

a few pieces of Buddhist teachings/writings







although i know Buddhism teaches we need to pry from our senses and worldly matters.. is such attraction between a man and a woman to be ignored and discouraged as evil hedonistic attachments?


[not to be rude either but id like your personal opinions moreso than links to websites :) ]

There are many aspects to Buddhism, and its gets taught or propagated in some pretty different ways/views. So I'm hesitant to say that "Buddhism says/teaches...", nor do I want to elaborate on a variety of different Buddhist schools and their take on things. With all that preface, one point of view is to say Buddhism takes a very "be in the present moment" attitude towards things, and "accept things as they are, with neither attachment nor aversion." That second one is more open to interpretation, and likely to trigger reactions in others ["Are you saying that Buddhism says we shouldn't try to change things, that we should avoid politics, that we should ignore social engagement???"].

I would say, since you asked for our opinions, having relationships isn't wrong and its definitely part of being human. Non-attachment would come in more along the lines of "accepting people for who they are" instead of trying to change them or wish they were different, and also "being in the current moment" and enjoying your experience right now, instead of living in the past or spending all of your time fantasizing about how the future might be.
 
S

Sniffles

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The closest Western counterpart to Buddhism is Stoicism, and there's evidence of contact between Buddhist teachers and Stoic scholars in the ancient world.
 

Magic Poriferan

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One of a handful of reasons I am not inclined to be a Buddhist.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

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No no no no no no no...

You can have love. Buddha said don't obsess over it and hang your self-worth on anything. Own your own self-worth. So, if relationships come, that's fine, but if they go, let them go. Don't attach to them and obsess over them because if you do, you'll be unhappy. If you can genuinely let things come and go in your life and not get tripped up by them, that's fine. Sensual pleasure comes, it comes; it goes, it goes. Buddhism would encourage you not to fixate upon it. AVOIDING IT, like your OP suggests, would be a form of fixation, just in the other direction. This is why Buddhism is called the Middle Way. You neither pursue nor avoid pleasure and pain, but accept them and move on. (I'm not criticizing you at all, btw.)

There's a book called Open to Desire by...argh...google it. I believe it addresses this topic. Jack Kornfield, John Kabat-Zinn, Trudy Goodman, Bonnie What'sherface, they all are married or have significant others. The issue for a Buddhist isn't whether or not to get married, but what type of relationship to form to that person and how the nature of that relationship may interfere with other responsibilities and priorities you might have (like saving all beings from suffering, but that's not an issue you raised in your OP).

Cheers.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

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Non-attachment would come in more along the lines of "accepting people for who they are" instead of trying to change them or wish they were different, and also "being in the current moment" and enjoying your experience right now, instead of living in the past or spending all of your time fantasizing about how the future might be.

Yes, and not trying to possess the person and incorporate them into your self-concept, i.e., considering them a possession that makes you a valuable person.

I'm glad to see that we end up seeing things the same way. I tend to read everyone's reply after posting my own thoughts, and in this case, read your response after authoring my own. It's reassuring. Cheers, Scott.
 

nanook

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buddhism deals with the reality of the human condition. to ignore buddhism is to ignore reality. that is certainly a valid path. many people have gone there. some people get abducted by aliens. samsara is Big Fun™.
 

Scott N Denver

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Yes, and not trying to possess the person and incorporate them into your self-concept, i.e., considering them a possession that makes you a valuable person.

I'm glad to see that we end up seeing things the same way. I tend to read everyone's reply after posting my own thoughts, and in this case, read your response after authoring my own. It's reassuring. Cheers, Scott.

I'm really liking the content of your postings on these buddhism-related threads, I want you to know. I often say something in a condensed manner, based upon recollections. You elaborate those things more though, which i think is more helpful for other readers.

Do you feel like other people are really mis-interpreting or mis-understanding Buddhism here? I'm definitely feeling that way. In short, I think people are seeing it as a philosophy, or else similar to some philosophy, and then just leaving it at that. To be fair, many of the things they are saying ARE common misinterpretations. At least with, say, Hinduism, its usually clear to people that they don't know much about what they are talking about...
 
S

Sniffles

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Do you feel like other people are really mis-interpreting or mis-understanding Buddhism here? I'm definitely feeling that way. In short, I think people are seeing it as a philosophy, or else similar to some philosophy, and then just leaving it at that. To be fair, many of the things they are saying ARE common misinterpretations. At least with, say, Hinduism, its usually clear to people that they don't know much about what they are talking about...
People often confuse Buddhism and Hinduism I notice. Concerning Buddhism as a philosophy or a religion, well it often depends. Particularly with the differences between Theravada and Mahayana schools for example. I know Tibetan Buddhism more freely mixed itself with native folk beliefs and shamanism.

You have to take in effect also that many Westerners who practice Buddhism often focus more on its philosophical aspects rather than what we would call its more religious aspects - as one would find in many Asian cultures.
 

Scott N Denver

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People often confuse Buddhism and Hinduism I notice. Concerning Buddhism as a philosophy or a religion, well it often depends. Particularly with the differences between Theravada and Mahayana schools for example. I know Tibetan Buddhism more freely mixed itself with native folk beliefs and shamanism.

You have to take in effect also that many Westerners who practice Buddhism often focus more on its philosophical aspects rather than what we would call its more religious aspects - as one would find in many Asian cultures.

Those are both good points. Mahayana/Vajrayana are pretty different from Theravada, and thats part of why I have a hard time knowing how to respond to people's questions here sometimes. Fwiw, my background is thoroughly Mahayana-level, but I've read plenty of Theravada and Vajrayana as well. Also, in China you got a lot of Buddhism-Taoism merging, and much of my perspective is Chinese. Before going to Japan and getting renamed to Zen, it was Chan in China, and had much more Daoist influence.

To me, I often point out that I "practice" Buddhism [and other things as well.] For other people it may be different, and there are different levels of "practicing" a religion, but for me Buddhism is something I practice. I'm not just saying "I believe ___" or "Buddhism says___", but I take practices and apply them. Meditation stuff, Mahayana stuff. There is definitely plenty of debate about whether Buddhism, and the others, should be called "eastern religions" or "eastern philosophies." Either way, its not "just some philosophy", its something that people can, and many of us do!, practice.
 
S

Sniffles

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Well the Chinese have often been rather syncretistic in their religious-philosophical schools of thought. Although in India Buddhism often merged greatly with Hinudism almost to the point they're not readily distinguishable.

A rough(though imperfect) analogy I guess would be to some of the various sects of Christianity, and how many people get confused as to the exact differences between them - then trying to distinguish between Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism in a general sense and how they interacted with each other over the generations.
 
S

Sniffles

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Speaking of Daoism, I liked this:
[youtube="yRUv09kEnHo"]<3 Chinese music[/youtube]
Don't know what cartoon or story this is from though.
 

kiddykat

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OP- I too bought some Buddhist books, and am a little perplexed with parts of the writings as well. Ex- the idea of 'non-self.' A.k.a. translation- I don't get it.

I think a lot of the times, what's written about the philosophy in its original context can be lost in translation so easily. I speak a 2nd language, and certain things passed down as words of wisdom, when I translate it into English can sound totally different with meaningful intentions, but the quality of what's said gets watered down, and can't be quite explained the same way..

Just my theory.

I'd take the teachings with a grain of salt, until you can actually learn it from a true expert, because after reading portions of it? I sometimes feel even more empty/detached. I think complete detachment from life is a half-lived life. Carl Rogers even studied Buddhism himself, and in the end, he concluded to be happy and self-actualized, it's often that we need to experience the highs and lows it has to offer in order to truly savor our experiences in life.

Buddha also said to not get too attached to his writings/philosophy. One thing I do LOVE about Buddhism is the fact that it invites you to question all you want about what it stands for, and I agree with the philosophy for the most part. Very peaceful, insightful, and a breath of fresh air for me (considering I grew up with a lot of cramming down of very traditional values not to be questioned but taken for what it is). :yes:
 
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