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  1. #21
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiddykat View Post
    One thing I do LOVE about Buddhism is the fact that it invites you to question all you want about what it stands for, and I agree with the philosophy for the most part. Very peaceful, insightful, and a breath of fresh air for me (considering I grew up with a lot of cramming down of very traditional values not to be questioned but taken for what it is).
    Questioning is found in various traditions, not just Buddhism. It's through questioning one better understands their tradition and why it teaches what it teaches.

  2. #22
    movin melodies kiddykat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Questioning is found in various traditions, not just Buddhism. It's through questioning one better understands their tradition and why it teaches what it teaches.
    I didn't say just in Buddhism.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Questioning is found in various traditions, not just Buddhism. It's through questioning one better understands their tradition and why it teaches what it teaches.
    Maybe, but Buddhism is far more open/emphatic about it than any monotheistic anything I've ever encountered or learned about. People debate whether Buddhism is a religion or a philosophy, but I've never heard it called a "faith" ever, by anyone. Last time i checked all the monotheisms are "faiths". Not being a faith, and not having dogma per se leaves much more room for questioning/ignoring/being agnostic on things.

    He's not Buddhist, but as Jaggi Vasudev points out "whether your believe something is true or whether you believe something is false, either way it is a believe. And those don't get you very far. Actually, they are basically just pre-conceived notions. And one's attachment to pre-conceived notions often gets in the way of seeing and experiencing what one is actually dealing with. I need you to get beyond beliefs."

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    Maybe, but Buddhism is far more open/emphatic about it than any monotheistic anything I've ever encountered or learned about. People debate whether Buddhism is a religion or a philosophy, but I've never heard it called a "faith" ever, by anyone. Last time i checked all the monotheisms are "faiths". Not being a faith, and not having dogma per se leaves much more room for questioning/ignoring/being agnostic on things.
    I'm aware of the (perceived) latitudinarian nature of Buddhism, and why that is one major attraction people have to it. And it's interesting you note that lacking dogmas leaves more room for being angostic, which I would agree in the original meaning of the word.

    He's not Buddhist, but as Jaggi Vasudev points out "whether your believe something is true or whether you believe something is false, either way it is a believe. And those don't get you very far. Actually, they are basically just pre-conceived notions. And one's attachment to pre-conceived notions often gets in the way of seeing and experiencing what one is actually dealing with. I need you to get beyond beliefs."
    Yet in order to agree with this, you have already assumed that he states is true. The notion that pre-conceived notions can in the way of discerning the true nature of reality is not absent from monotheistic faiths either.

  5. #25
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Oh gosh Peguy, please do regale us with a tortuous rationalization of how Catholicism, despite being rife with peremptory dogma and ritual, in fact allows more latitude in belief than Buddhism.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Oh gosh Peguy, please do regale us with a tortuous rationalization of how Catholicism, despite being rife with peremptory dogma and ritual, in fact allows more latitude in belief than Buddhism.
    Did a priest spill communion wine on you as a child?

  7. #27
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    People often confuse Buddhism and Hinduism I notice. Concerning Buddhism as a philosophy or a religion, well it often depends. Particularly with the differences between Theravada and Mahayana schools for example. I know Tibetan Buddhism more freely mixed itself with native folk beliefs and shamanism.

    You have to take in effect also that many Westerners who practice Buddhism often focus more on its philosophical aspects rather than what we would call its more religious aspects - as one would find in many Asian cultures.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    Maybe, but Buddhism is far more open/emphatic about it than any monotheistic anything I've ever encountered or learned about. People debate whether Buddhism is a religion or a philosophy, but I've never heard it called a "faith" ever, by anyone. Last time i checked all the monotheisms are "faiths". Not being a faith, and not having dogma per se leaves much more room for questioning/ignoring/being agnostic on things.

    He's not Buddhist, but as Jaggi Vasudev points out "whether your believe something is true or whether you believe something is false, either way it is a believe. And those don't get you very far. Actually, they are basically just pre-conceived notions. And one's attachment to pre-conceived notions often gets in the way of seeing and experiencing what one is actually dealing with. I need you to get beyond beliefs."
    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Oh gosh Peguy, please do regale us with a tortuous rationalization of how Catholicism, despite being rife with peremptory dogma and ritual, in fact allows more latitude in belief than Buddhism.
    Im actually going to agree with Peguy. IMO, a lot of idiot new agers look to Buddhism thinking, "its so open! its not a religion! I can just add it on top of all my other beliefs/religions/metaphysics". To be fair, this may not be a criticism of you all here. In reality though, in a western sense, it is just as much of a religion as Christianity.

    There ARE certain metaphysical beliefs that you HAVE TO believe with more faith than daily experience to really drive you to want to be this gun ho about the middle path. If you don't believe in reincarnation for example, then there really is very little difference between the practice of Buddhism and the practice of Epicureanism or any other ascetic religion. Its reincarnation that prevents the entire thing from falling on its nihilistic ponzi scheme self. If there's no reincarnation, then whats the fucking point of worrying about imagining yourself out of existence? If there's no reincarnation, then Buddhism just concerns itself with happiness in this life and its "middle path" is no different than a bunch of other ascetic religions.

    Here's a nice topic for everyone: why have so many religions basically amounted to asceticism? Do humans have a deep seated desire to deny themselves of various things (serious)?

  8. #28
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    There is definitely plenty of debate about whether Buddhism, and the others, should be called "eastern religions" or "eastern philosophies."
    If one believes in reincarnation, and that Karma influences what an individual reincarnates into, and believes that practicing Buddhism will influence that process, then its a religion AND a faith, pure and simple.

    Edit: I should have read Babylon Candle's post first.
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 03-18-2010 at 06:14 AM. Reason: self-evident

  9. #29
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Babylon Candle, most forms of Buddhism (Zen in particular) offer an alternative to the oxymoron of the "First Cause": that time is incidental to our experience of reality, not to reality itself. The idea is that, by proper training and practice, we can learn to set aside the contents of our imaginations (emotions, phantasms, etc.) and experience, to the greatest degree possible, the subjectivity of time and space. To the extent that ideas like "reincarnation" are taught, they're used as parables to be understood and then moved beyond on the path to greater understanding.

    As for your being nihilistic, the idea is that by setting aside the things that exist only within our imaginations we begin to experience life; not exactly a proposition I would consider "nihilistic" in its proper philosophical sense or in the negatively-nuanced, colloquial sense you're using the term.

    As for whether or not it's a religion, just what constitutes a "religion" is vague to begin with, and in my experience, people who call it a philosophy rather than a religion are doing so because they're Christians who can't fathom of a religion that doesn't concern itself predominantly with what one may or may not do.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  10. #30
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Did a priest spill communion wine on you as a child?
    No, I just take issue with people who go about judging and looking down their noses on the basis of a fairy tale they've not an iota of evidence to support.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

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