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  1. #51
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    This sounds like the kind of Gnostic "death of God" type thinking Voegelin talked about.
    If you were trying to lead me away from the dark side, you probably shouldn't have referred me to him.

  2. #52
    Sniffles
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    Well I actually have no intention of keeping you away from Voegelin's work, although here's a fair warning about reading him:
    "Mastering Voegelin's thought can be difficult. He is erudite and assumes the reader is more or less familiar with the material, or at least has a grasp of history, philosophy, theology, psychology, and sociology. A reading knowledge of Latin, Greek, and modern European languages helps. One can only read Voegelin with understanding if one reads more than a few others as well. Moreover, Voegelin often felt compelled to introduce new technical terms or employ old terms in new ways. A further difficulty stems from the restorative nature of his work which requires the conventionally schooled student to approach his topics in a fresh way—especially difficult for that poorly nourished individual deprived of a religious foundation."
    VoegelinView Eric Voegelin Biographical Sketch

  3. #53
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Well I actually have no intention of keeping you away from Voegelin's work, although here's a fair warning about reading him:

    VoegelinView Eric Voegelin Biographical Sketch
    Cool. Thank you sir. Hopefully I won't have too much trouble with it.

    Anyway, sorry for derailing the thread. Carry on.

  4. #54
    Sniffles
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    No you haven't derailed it, no more than anybody else has. This is what I was talking about:

    The aim of parousiatic gnosticism is to destroy the order of being, which is experienced as defective and unjust, and through man's creative power to replace it with a perfect and just order. Now, however the order of being may be understood - as a world dominated by cosmic-divine powers in the civilizations of the Near and Far East, or as a creation of a world-transcendent God in Judaeo-Christian symbolism, or as an essential order of being in philosophical contemplation - it remains something that is given, that is not under man's control. In order, therefore, that the attempt to create a new world may seem to make sense, the givenness of the order of being must be obliterated; the order of being must be interpreted, rather, as essentially under man's control. And taking control of being further requires that the the transcendent origin of being be obliterated: it requires the decapitation of being - the muder of God.

    The murder of God is committed speculatively by explaining divine being as the work of man...Man should stop creating gods because this sets absurd limits to his will and action; and he should realize that the gods he has already created have in fact been created by him...There may be no being or image of being that might make human will and thought appear finite..In order to appear the unlimited master of being, man must so delimit being that limitations are no longer evident. And why must this magic act be performed? The answer is: "If there were gods, how could I endure not being a god! Therefore, there are no gods."

    It does not suffice, therefore, to replace the old world of God with a new world of man: the world of God itself must have been a world of man, and God a work of man which can therefore be destroyed if it prevents man from reigning over the order of being. The murder of God must be made retroactive speculatively...The murder of God, then, is of the very essence of the gnostic re-creation of the order of being.
    Eric Voegelin, Science, Politics and Gnosticism pg. 35-36;37

  5. #55
    Senior Member ChildoftheProphets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tater Typhoon View Post
    Anyway, sorry for derailing the thread. Carry on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    No you haven't derailed it, no more than anybody else has.
    Lol, you guys make me laugh. I have a feeling I might make a new thead tomorrow to put things back on the right track (and then just use this one to answer Lark's question about organic Christianity).
    "In the opening and shutting of heaven's gate, are you able to play the feminine part?" -- Lao Tzu

    "For when the One Great Scorer comes
    To write against your name,
    He marks - not that you won or lost -
    But how you played the Game."
    -- Grantland Rice

    “Life is a game, boy. Life is a game that one plays according to the rules.” -- from The Catcher in the Rye

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do, and what a man can't do." -- Jack Sparrow

  6. #56
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Well, don't say wrong things that you know aren't true.

    Like "we Christians are now governed by the New Convenant, not the Old Convenant".

    Just be consistent. Other than consistently wrong.
    Most Christian denominations do believe that. The only ones I can think of that don't are the messianics and the seventh day adventists.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  7. #57
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    No you haven't derailed it, no more than anybody else has. This is what I was talking about:



    Eric Voegelin, Science, Politics and Gnosticism pg. 35-36;37
    I'm thinking that this is where society is generally headed. It also reminds me of Victor and his raving about man being God (subliminal as they are). This is something I've thought about, as the creativity of man is finite in nature, but gnosticism encourages unlimited creativity, which would essentially br Creation itself, thus switching the roll of man and God.

    However, man speculates that Creation was an occurrence of spontaneous events dictated by chance, which is also a conjecture made by man, thus denoting the Creation of existence to man. Right?

    Where does Deism come in to this? Would Deism be a step on the gradual ladder towards gnosticism?

  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChildoftheProphets View Post
    Lol, you guys make me laugh. I have a feeling I might make a new thead tomorrow to put things back on the right track (and then just use this one to answer Lark's question about organic Christianity).
    Nawh, I'm not going to bother posting about it anymore, I've made my point and others disagree. That's fine. I'm not going to derail the thread.

  9. #59
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Christs saids so himself in the Bible.
    That's the thing about books, they're open to interpretation. You have your own interpretation.

    Christ also contradicted himself a few times in the Bible. Or rather, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John did.

  10. #60
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Most Christian denominations do believe that. The only ones I can think of that don't are the messianics and the seventh day adventists.
    Fundamentalists? Evangelicals and Protestants?

    A lot view both the New and Old Testament as infallible and historically accurate, right?

    And what about when Jesus said these things about the OT's authority:

    5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them

    18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

    19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven

    20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

    - New International Version

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