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  1. #41
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tater Typhoon View Post
    Abiding by such a tradition contradicts any notion of individual conscience.
    You from realise it's from the Bible(that "primative" document as you call it) and Christianity that the concept of "conscience" originates from?

    Here's a dramatic take on one famous example of that concept in practice, with Sir Thomas More:
    [youtube="TZuc_fdMe64"]A matter of conscience[/youtube]

  2. #42
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Disheartening for me, as a (for lack of a better term) disenfranchised evangelical, is the absorption of neo-con values and the lack of compassion that often goes along with it.

    I think that the do-goodering that has been an inherent part of Christianity for most of its history is one of the best things we have to offer society, especially in these difficult times. If we could do it with a little more love and a little less ulterior motives and judgment it would be snazzy.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #43
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    You from realise it's from the Bible(that "primative" document as you call it) and Christianity that the concept of "conscience" originates from?
    Entertaining and heartfelt, but your video alludes to the conscience being that of God, not necessarily the Bible. Now, if society were to observe such strict conscience of the Bible, then we may find slavery to be acceptable (ages old argument, I know), we may find that we should stone our children if they are to dishonor us, and we may find many other gruesome things along the path of religious retribution and the grinding guilt of "sins" committed.

    Now, since your argument is one of origin, seeing as that somehow dictates the essence of human conscience - historicity and psychology aside - we should observe the Old Testament Law, correct? The Old Testament is the origin, and therefore we should find moral refuge in it?

  4. #44
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tater Typhoon View Post
    Entertaining and heartfelt, but your video alludes to the conscience being that of God, not necessarily the Bible.
    Sir Thomas More invokes the God of the Bible, and the verses in the Bible when Christ confers authority unto St. Peter.

    Now, if society were to observe such strict conscience of the Bible, then we may find slavery to be acceptable (ages old argument, I know), we may find that we should stone our children if they are to dishonor us, and we may find many other gruesome things along the path of religious retribution and the grinding guilt of "sins" committed.

    Now, since your argument is one of origin, seeing as that somehow dictates the essence of human conscience - historicity and psychology aside - we should observe the Old Testament Law, correct? The Old Testament is the origin, and therefore we should find moral refuge in it?
    No not necessarily since we Christians are now governed by the New Convenant, not the Old Convenant. And slavery is a settled issues for the most part, since Christendom was the first civilization to abolish it. So you're not going to get far with that argument.

  5. #45
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    No not necessarily since we Christians are now governed by the New Convenant, not the Old Convenant.
    Depends on the Christian denomination, you know that. They don't all agree about how Biblical law applies today.

  6. #46
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Depends on the Christian denomination, you know that.
    Yes of course I know that. Now run along, we're trying to have a discussion here, and your one-liners aren't much contribution.

  7. #47
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yes of course I know that. Now run along, we're trying to have a discussion here, and your one-liners aren't much contribution.
    Well, don't say wrong things that you know aren't true.

    Like "we Christians are now governed by the New Convenant, not the Old Convenant".

    Just be consistent. Other than consistently wrong.

  8. #48
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Well, don't say wrong things that you know aren't true.
    Cute.

    Like "we Christians are now governed by the New Convenant, not the Old Convenant".
    Christs saids so himself in the Bible.

    So once again run along boy.

  9. #49
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    No not necessarily since we Christians are now governed by the New Convenant, not the Old Convenant. And slavery is a settled issues for the most part, since Christendom was the first civilization to abolish it. So you're not going to get far with that argument.
    Exactly. So we see that God and his commandments are revolutionary and ambiguous, just like men. We also see that he is inconsistent, just like men. It is impossible not to anthropomorphize God because he did, after all, walk around in the Garden of Eden on two feet. Most importantly, he was written by men to control other men on the most subconscious level, as the parent subconsciously scolds the child. But just like a parent, God is fallible; for his son undid him! So, should we be Christ-like and undo our parents?

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tater Typhoon View Post
    Exactly. So we see that God and his commandments are revolutionary and ambiguous, just like men. We also see that he is inconsistent, just like men. It is impossible not to anthropomorphize God because he did, after all, walk around in the Garden of Eden on two feet. Most importantly, he was written by men to control other men on the most subconscious level, as the parent subconsciously scolds the child. But just like a parent, God is fallible; for his son undid him! So, should we be Christ-like and undo our parents?
    This sounds like the kind of Gnostic "death of God" type thinking Voegelin talked about.

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